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	<title>Comments on: The Torture Memos</title>
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		<title>By: Roque Nuevo</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/04/the-torture-memos/#comment-5146</link>
		<dc:creator>Roque Nuevo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Apr 2009 14:19:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=2993#comment-5146</guid>
		<description>Assumes facts not in evidence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Assumes facts not in evidence.</p>
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		<title>By: Jaybird</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/04/the-torture-memos/#comment-5129</link>
		<dc:creator>Jaybird</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Apr 2009 02:54:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=2993#comment-5129</guid>
		<description>As I said above: We can bomb them to hell and back without becoming damned. We can shoot them until they are dead without becoming damned. Fucking with people because we have the power to fuck with people is in a different category entirely.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I said above: We can bomb them to hell and back without becoming damned. We can shoot them until they are dead without becoming damned. Fucking with people because we have the power to fuck with people is in a different category entirely.</p>
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		<title>By: Roque Nuevo</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/04/the-torture-memos/#comment-5125</link>
		<dc:creator>Roque Nuevo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Apr 2009 00:01:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=2993#comment-5125</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re not listening. Here are some facts: we have tolerated much worse behavior in Vietnam, WWII. Then, before that, there was the colonization of the Philippines, which was a long, counterinsurgency. Don&#039;t even get me on the topic of the Indian Wars. And so on. Are these facts enough for you?

If the slippery-slope was as much a danger as you say--We&#039;re all &quot;becoming damned”--then we&#039;d be tolerating a lot worse than caterpillar torture. Don&#039;t you think?

In contrast, one can see that the tendency is exactly the opposite of what you say--Americans today tolerate these things less and less.

The fact that we&#039;re even having this discussion is fact enough to show that I&#039;m right. Imagine someone back in the 1880s raising the issue some government lawyer &lt;i&gt;authorizing&lt;/i&gt; the military to hold an in&#039;jun chief captive in a box with a caterpillar when we were giving them syphilis and turning them into hopeless alcoholics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re not listening. Here are some facts: we have tolerated much worse behavior in Vietnam, WWII. Then, before that, there was the colonization of the Philippines, which was a long, counterinsurgency. Don&#8217;t even get me on the topic of the Indian Wars. And so on. Are these facts enough for you?</p>
<p>If the slippery-slope was as much a danger as you say&#8211;We&#8217;re all &#8220;becoming damned”&#8211;then we&#8217;d be tolerating a lot worse than caterpillar torture. Don&#8217;t you think?</p>
<p>In contrast, one can see that the tendency is exactly the opposite of what you say&#8211;Americans today tolerate these things less and less.</p>
<p>The fact that we&#8217;re even having this discussion is fact enough to show that I&#8217;m right. Imagine someone back in the 1880s raising the issue some government lawyer <i>authorizing</i> the military to hold an in&#8217;jun chief captive in a box with a caterpillar when we were giving them syphilis and turning them into hopeless alcoholics.</p>
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		<title>By: Jaybird</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/04/the-torture-memos/#comment-5123</link>
		<dc:creator>Jaybird</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Apr 2009 21:15:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=2993#comment-5123</guid>
		<description>&quot;We can always decline to go even further down that slope. &quot;

Assumes facts not in evidence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;We can always decline to go even further down that slope. &#8221;</p>
<p>Assumes facts not in evidence.</p>
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		<title>By: Roque Nuevo</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/04/the-torture-memos/#comment-5120</link>
		<dc:creator>Roque Nuevo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Apr 2009 19:12:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=2993#comment-5120</guid>
		<description>I understood the slippery slope argument before you were even born. Therefore, I understand that it can&#039;t be as deterministic as you seem to believe. We can always decline to go even further down that slope. If you&#039;re interested, Eugene Volokh has written a lot about this topic.

In the case at hand, history proves Volokh&#039;s point: Americans have been willing to tolerate a lot of practices in our foreign wars that they would never even consider tolerating at home. I look down on ideas like, &quot;We cannot create a Room 101 without becoming damned&quot; mainly because I lack the Puritan/religious spirit that this idea comes from. I don&#039;t believe in damnation. I think it&#039;s a concept for babies. But, more to the point, we have been engaging in such practices for a very long time--Scheuer only mentions the administrations with which he has direct experience. For example, the so-called greatest generation, in WWII, committed atrocities that would be unthinkable today. Read &lt;i&gt;With the Old Breed&lt;/i&gt;, by Eugene Sledge (a WWII Okinawa vet) if you don&#039;t believe me. So, if using these techniques will &quot;damn&quot; us, we&#039;ve been damned at least since WWII. If we &lt;i&gt;are&lt;/i&gt; damned, then maybe being &quot;damned&quot; isn&#039;t so bad after all: we still have the greatest standard of living in all history. 

Specifically with respect to the &quot;torture memos,&quot; how can you seriously suggest that people be prosecuted for only thinking about certain practices--especially since reasonable people of good will can disagree as to whether these practices constitute torture. Like putting someone in a cage with a caterpillar! There&#039;s an ancient principle in the law: &quot;&lt;i&gt;nullus vulnero nullus poena&lt;/i&gt;&quot; (&quot;no harm, no penalty,&quot; or something like that).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I understood the slippery slope argument before you were even born. Therefore, I understand that it can&#8217;t be as deterministic as you seem to believe. We can always decline to go even further down that slope. If you&#8217;re interested, Eugene Volokh has written a lot about this topic.</p>
<p>In the case at hand, history proves Volokh&#8217;s point: Americans have been willing to tolerate a lot of practices in our foreign wars that they would never even consider tolerating at home. I look down on ideas like, &#8220;We cannot create a Room 101 without becoming damned&#8221; mainly because I lack the Puritan/religious spirit that this idea comes from. I don&#8217;t believe in damnation. I think it&#8217;s a concept for babies. But, more to the point, we have been engaging in such practices for a very long time&#8211;Scheuer only mentions the administrations with which he has direct experience. For example, the so-called greatest generation, in WWII, committed atrocities that would be unthinkable today. Read <i>With the Old Breed</i>, by Eugene Sledge (a WWII Okinawa vet) if you don&#8217;t believe me. So, if using these techniques will &#8220;damn&#8221; us, we&#8217;ve been damned at least since WWII. If we <i>are</i> damned, then maybe being &#8220;damned&#8221; isn&#8217;t so bad after all: we still have the greatest standard of living in all history. </p>
<p>Specifically with respect to the &#8220;torture memos,&#8221; how can you seriously suggest that people be prosecuted for only thinking about certain practices&#8211;especially since reasonable people of good will can disagree as to whether these practices constitute torture. Like putting someone in a cage with a caterpillar! There&#8217;s an ancient principle in the law: &#8220;<i>nullus vulnero nullus poena</i>&#8221; (&#8220;no harm, no penalty,&#8221; or something like that).</p>
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		<title>By: Jaybird</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/04/the-torture-memos/#comment-5118</link>
		<dc:creator>Jaybird</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Apr 2009 18:36:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=2993#comment-5118</guid>
		<description>*NOW* you understand the slippery slope argument.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>*NOW* you understand the slippery slope argument.</p>
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		<title>By: Roque Nuevo</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/04/the-torture-memos/#comment-5116</link>
		<dc:creator>Roque Nuevo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Apr 2009 18:16:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=2993#comment-5116</guid>
		<description>Great! What&#039;s next, Robespierre? Revolutionar tribunals?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great! What&#8217;s next, Robespierre? Revolutionar tribunals?</p>
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		<title>By: Jaybird</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/04/the-torture-memos/#comment-5109</link>
		<dc:creator>Jaybird</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Apr 2009 16:10:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=2993#comment-5109</guid>
		<description>Restated seriously, I wouldn&#039;t mind if the person who wrote such a thing were prosecuted, found guilty, and thrown in jail for the rest of his life.

They could put a webcam in his cell. A feed from the webcam ought to go to the lobby of the building where the memo in question was written. Under the monitor showing the live 24/7 broadcast of the guy in his cell, there can be a plaque.

The plaque can say &quot;this guy wrote a memo authorizing room 101&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Restated seriously, I wouldn&#8217;t mind if the person who wrote such a thing were prosecuted, found guilty, and thrown in jail for the rest of his life.</p>
<p>They could put a webcam in his cell. A feed from the webcam ought to go to the lobby of the building where the memo in question was written. Under the monitor showing the live 24/7 broadcast of the guy in his cell, there can be a plaque.</p>
<p>The plaque can say &#8220;this guy wrote a memo authorizing room 101&#8243;.</p>
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		<title>By: Jaybird</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/04/the-torture-memos/#comment-5108</link>
		<dc:creator>Jaybird</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Apr 2009 16:03:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=2993#comment-5108</guid>
		<description>Every now and again, it&#039;s a good idea to hang a government worker.

It encourages the others.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Every now and again, it&#8217;s a good idea to hang a government worker.</p>
<p>It encourages the others.</p>
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		<title>By: Roque Nuevo</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/04/the-torture-memos/#comment-5106</link>
		<dc:creator>Roque Nuevo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Apr 2009 10:13:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=2993#comment-5106</guid>
		<description>So now people will be prosecuted for &lt;i&gt;thinking about&lt;/i&gt; doing this stuff? This righteous wrath run amok.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So now people will be prosecuted for <i>thinking about</i> doing this stuff? This righteous wrath run amok.</p>
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