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	<title>Comments on: We&#8217;re All Mad Here</title>
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		<title>By: Protests, Movements, and Communities &#124; The League of Ordinary Gentlemen</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/04/were-all-mad-here/#comment-5679</link>
		<dc:creator>Protests, Movements, and Communities &#124; The League of Ordinary Gentlemen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Apr 2009 19:36:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=2885#comment-5679</guid>
		<description>[...] suggested some thoughtful protests have the potential to build (I think commenter Michael Drew is correct to point out that not all protests are created equal, as it [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] suggested some thoughtful protests have the potential to build (I think commenter Michael Drew is correct to point out that not all protests are created equal, as it [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Drew</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/04/were-all-mad-here/#comment-5102</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Drew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Apr 2009 06:57:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=2885#comment-5102</guid>
		<description>Here here to the entire post and to most of Scott&#039;s most recent comment.  I don&#039;t think there&#039;s any doubt that a focused protest should in most cases be the goal, unless it is in some way a self-conscious &#039;general awareness&#039; gathering.  These happen all the time, but are usually informally organized at best (I&#039;m thinking of the quad during the first week of school on any liberal arts campus in the country).  But generally, if you want to bring about change, you try to focus your message.  But just about any level of failure to do that doesn&#039;t render the civic engagement valueless or worthy of dismissal by any means.

That said, I think that saying that there is some value in nearly all civic-minded gatherings shouldn&#039;t go to grant that all are of equal significance.  However many Mumia protesters might have been present at anti-war rallies in February 2003, it takes some doing to see them as significantly muddying the fundamental message.  (One thing that just doesn&#039;t fly is to criticize large numbers of people gathered to one larger end for having disparate paths of reasoning to that position.  Some protesters six years ago may have been absolute pacifists, others angry at having been mislead about the case for war, others not trusting that president to carry out what they thought an otherwise just war competently -- they all belonged there that day and in no way muddied the message, even if the speeches veered wildly in political outlook).  On the other hand, I think it takes a focused and sympathetic mind to understand just what the tea Parties are getting at, but perhaps my sympathies are showing.  That again doesn&#039;t render the gatherings without social utility, as the post very well points out.  But neither is there any reason to pretend the two series of events had equal coherence or political meaning (as Douthat seems to have done).  We don&#039;t have to abandon our critical faculties in order to accept that there is value in civic engagement of almost any peaceful form.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here here to the entire post and to most of Scott&#8217;s most recent comment.  I don&#8217;t think there&#8217;s any doubt that a focused protest should in most cases be the goal, unless it is in some way a self-conscious &#8216;general awareness&#8217; gathering.  These happen all the time, but are usually informally organized at best (I&#8217;m thinking of the quad during the first week of school on any liberal arts campus in the country).  But generally, if you want to bring about change, you try to focus your message.  But just about any level of failure to do that doesn&#8217;t render the civic engagement valueless or worthy of dismissal by any means.</p>
<p>That said, I think that saying that there is some value in nearly all civic-minded gatherings shouldn&#8217;t go to grant that all are of equal significance.  However many Mumia protesters might have been present at anti-war rallies in February 2003, it takes some doing to see them as significantly muddying the fundamental message.  (One thing that just doesn&#8217;t fly is to criticize large numbers of people gathered to one larger end for having disparate paths of reasoning to that position.  Some protesters six years ago may have been absolute pacifists, others angry at having been mislead about the case for war, others not trusting that president to carry out what they thought an otherwise just war competently &#8212; they all belonged there that day and in no way muddied the message, even if the speeches veered wildly in political outlook).  On the other hand, I think it takes a focused and sympathetic mind to understand just what the tea Parties are getting at, but perhaps my sympathies are showing.  That again doesn&#8217;t render the gatherings without social utility, as the post very well points out.  But neither is there any reason to pretend the two series of events had equal coherence or political meaning (as Douthat seems to have done).  We don&#8217;t have to abandon our critical faculties in order to accept that there is value in civic engagement of almost any peaceful form.</p>
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		<title>By: Creating Apathy by Fighting Apathy &#124; The League of Ordinary Gentlemen</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/04/were-all-mad-here/#comment-4954</link>
		<dc:creator>Creating Apathy by Fighting Apathy &#124; The League of Ordinary Gentlemen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 13:30:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=2885#comment-4954</guid>
		<description>[...] Scott (and, by implication, Freddie) has put together a challenging retort to my arguments that most large-scale political protests are inevitably undermined by the unpreventable introduction of irrelevant issues into the protest and are thus exercises in futility.   At the risk of beating a dead horse, Scott&#8217;s riposte really deserves a full response.  Scott essentially concedes my basic point that the introduction of irrelevancies makes the protests incoherent to the general population.  BUT, he says, there is another part of protesting that maybe is served by carrying an Anti-Illegal Immigration sign to a government spending protest: &#8230;[I]n some cases the lack of clarity in protest messaging could be indicative of a group of people who are grappling with the articulation of a future that is novel, bold, and sincerely innovative. One doesn’t always necessarily have a fully-formed image of the different state of affairs that one thinks ought to be the case and the act of trying to articulate that vision, building it as you go, is an important and worthwhile endeavour. That our political discourse only takes seriously, to ape on Freddie for a moment, those articulations that are perfectly put together and nicely packaged is part of its problem. Such requirements stifle real creativity and debate, more often than not. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Scott (and, by implication, Freddie) has put together a challenging retort to my arguments that most large-scale political protests are inevitably undermined by the unpreventable introduction of irrelevant issues into the protest and are thus exercises in futility.   At the risk of beating a dead horse, Scott&#8217;s riposte really deserves a full response.  Scott essentially concedes my basic point that the introduction of irrelevancies makes the protests incoherent to the general population.  BUT, he says, there is another part of protesting that maybe is served by carrying an Anti-Illegal Immigration sign to a government spending protest: &#8230;[I]n some cases the lack of clarity in protest messaging could be indicative of a group of people who are grappling with the articulation of a future that is novel, bold, and sincerely innovative. One doesn’t always necessarily have a fully-formed image of the different state of affairs that one thinks ought to be the case and the act of trying to articulate that vision, building it as you go, is an important and worthwhile endeavour. That our political discourse only takes seriously, to ape on Freddie for a moment, those articulations that are perfectly put together and nicely packaged is part of its problem. Such requirements stifle real creativity and debate, more often than not. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Scott H. Payne</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/04/were-all-mad-here/#comment-4838</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott H. Payne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 01:30:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=2885#comment-4838</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not saying I don&#039;t roll my eyes at the determined non-sequitur protesters, because I often do. And that is not specific to the Mumia folks because last I was familiar with the case it was worth discussing. Besides, what&#039;s in questions is the state&#039;s ability to determine the outcome of a man&#039;s life where his guilt in the actions that are determining that outcome is uncertain; that&#039;s nothing to dismiss as unserious. 

But I hear what you&#039;re saying , the same would apply to somebody protesting about, say, the Iraq war at a Mumia demo. Regardless, I don&#039;t think this dynamic within protests renders them useless by any stretch of the imagination. 

On the flip side, there is an argument to be made that people protesting about disparate things at the same protest are as much building a community and demonstrating how these disparate issues are connected based on some relational qualities underlying the system against which they&#039;re dissatisfied. I&#039;m not entirely sure that that level of analysis is at work with every instance of an errant Mumia protesters, but neither is there anything saying that it is always missing, either. In some senses, this element of community building is the most noble and praiseworthy element of protests.

In the case of the tea parties, I think one has to recognize that people are coming together to demonstrate that there is an opposition to what seems like a massive tide of liberal awakening in the country. Those who oppose the Obamenon probably feel pretty isolated and irrelevant, so it makes sense that they would all come together to demonstrate both to themselves and to the country that they&#039;re not some marginal minority. Doing so states their own case while at the same time bolstering their confidence.

That their messaging is all over the place is partly about defining that community and partly, one has to also admit, because Obama, Congress, and the Senate have put so many different points on the board so quickly.

Anyhow, some food for thought.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not saying I don&#8217;t roll my eyes at the determined non-sequitur protesters, because I often do. And that is not specific to the Mumia folks because last I was familiar with the case it was worth discussing. Besides, what&#8217;s in questions is the state&#8217;s ability to determine the outcome of a man&#8217;s life where his guilt in the actions that are determining that outcome is uncertain; that&#8217;s nothing to dismiss as unserious. </p>
<p>But I hear what you&#8217;re saying , the same would apply to somebody protesting about, say, the Iraq war at a Mumia demo. Regardless, I don&#8217;t think this dynamic within protests renders them useless by any stretch of the imagination. </p>
<p>On the flip side, there is an argument to be made that people protesting about disparate things at the same protest are as much building a community and demonstrating how these disparate issues are connected based on some relational qualities underlying the system against which they&#8217;re dissatisfied. I&#8217;m not entirely sure that that level of analysis is at work with every instance of an errant Mumia protesters, but neither is there anything saying that it is always missing, either. In some senses, this element of community building is the most noble and praiseworthy element of protests.</p>
<p>In the case of the tea parties, I think one has to recognize that people are coming together to demonstrate that there is an opposition to what seems like a massive tide of liberal awakening in the country. Those who oppose the Obamenon probably feel pretty isolated and irrelevant, so it makes sense that they would all come together to demonstrate both to themselves and to the country that they&#8217;re not some marginal minority. Doing so states their own case while at the same time bolstering their confidence.</p>
<p>That their messaging is all over the place is partly about defining that community and partly, one has to also admit, because Obama, Congress, and the Senate have put so many different points on the board so quickly.</p>
<p>Anyhow, some food for thought.</p>
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		<title>By: Jaybird</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/04/were-all-mad-here/#comment-4831</link>
		<dc:creator>Jaybird</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 22:34:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=2885#comment-4831</guid>
		<description>I was actually being silly with that second part.

I do think that the the whole &quot;we were going to have a conversation about *THIS* but you come in talking about Mumia and doing your damnest to suck up all of the air in the room!&quot; phenomenon fits pretty well in either case, though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was actually being silly with that second part.</p>
<p>I do think that the the whole &#8220;we were going to have a conversation about *THIS* but you come in talking about Mumia and doing your damnest to suck up all of the air in the room!&#8221; phenomenon fits pretty well in either case, though.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott H. Payne</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/04/were-all-mad-here/#comment-4825</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott H. Payne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 21:55:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=2885#comment-4825</guid>
		<description>Just because you say it is so, does not make it so. The two strike me as different enough projects that your analogy is strained beyond its strength. Care to make your case?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just because you say it is so, does not make it so. The two strike me as different enough projects that your analogy is strained beyond its strength. Care to make your case?</p>
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		<title>By: Jaybird</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/04/were-all-mad-here/#comment-4824</link>
		<dc:creator>Jaybird</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 21:49:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=2885#comment-4824</guid>
		<description>A protest is just a group blog in meatspace.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A protest is just a group blog in meatspace.</p>
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		<title>By: Ridiculing the Tea Party Protests</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/04/were-all-mad-here/#comment-4819</link>
		<dc:creator>Ridiculing the Tea Party Protests</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 21:19:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=2885#comment-4819</guid>
		<description>[...] Scott Payne is right that it&#8217;s unfair to criticize ordinary citizens frustrated with the system and having the gumption to do something about it for not having a fully formed alternative agenda.  (It is, however, a fair criticism to make of intellectuals supporting said protests.)   Indeed, regardless of the cause, there are as many motivations for supporting it &#8212; or, as is more frequently the case, opposing it &#8212; as there are protesters. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Scott Payne is right that it&#8217;s unfair to criticize ordinary citizens frustrated with the system and having the gumption to do something about it for not having a fully formed alternative agenda.  (It is, however, a fair criticism to make of intellectuals supporting said protests.)   Indeed, regardless of the cause, there are as many motivations for supporting it &#8212; or, as is more frequently the case, opposing it &#8212; as there are protesters. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Scott H. Payne</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/04/were-all-mad-here/#comment-4817</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott H. Payne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 21:05:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=2885#comment-4817</guid>
		<description>Jaybird, your analogy between a protest and blog post might also be a hair &quot;meta&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jaybird, your analogy between a protest and blog post might also be a hair &#8220;meta&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Jaybird</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/04/were-all-mad-here/#comment-4815</link>
		<dc:creator>Jaybird</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 20:49:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=2885#comment-4815</guid>
		<description>My first thought when reading this post was &quot;I should write a 5-7 paragraph essay explaining, at length, why Mumia is innocent, how he was framed, why this matters, and how this affects you.&quot; If questioned, I&#039;d point out that this was a matter of justice and ask the human cost to society of keeping a permanent underclass incarcerated despite their innocence. If, after a couple of these exchanges, it was pointed out that I was being rude to my hosts and that, while this website is open to the public, it remains private property and the hosts reserve the right to refuse service to anyone, I would question the liberal bona fides of the person pointing that out.

Halfway through the first sentence, I realized that that was a hair &quot;meta&quot; and, instead, wrote this comment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My first thought when reading this post was &#8220;I should write a 5-7 paragraph essay explaining, at length, why Mumia is innocent, how he was framed, why this matters, and how this affects you.&#8221; If questioned, I&#8217;d point out that this was a matter of justice and ask the human cost to society of keeping a permanent underclass incarcerated despite their innocence. If, after a couple of these exchanges, it was pointed out that I was being rude to my hosts and that, while this website is open to the public, it remains private property and the hosts reserve the right to refuse service to anyone, I would question the liberal bona fides of the person pointing that out.</p>
<p>Halfway through the first sentence, I realized that that was a hair &#8220;meta&#8221; and, instead, wrote this comment.</p>
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