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	<title>Comments on: An Exceptionally Moral United States</title>
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		<title>By: US Religious Landscape &#124; The League of Ordinary Gentlemen</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/05/an-exceptionally-moral-united-states/#comment-6939</link>
		<dc:creator>US Religious Landscape &#124; The League of Ordinary Gentlemen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 May 2009 01:49:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=3779#comment-6939</guid>
		<description>[...] is an American survey and whatever we mean by the term exceptional (debated on our league here and here), America has to date been an exception to the decline in religious trend seen in the rest [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] is an American survey and whatever we mean by the term exceptional (debated on our league here and here), America has to date been an exception to the decline in religious trend seen in the rest [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Daily Affirmations 5/6 - The Plank</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/05/an-exceptionally-moral-united-states/#comment-6638</link>
		<dc:creator>Daily Affirmations 5/6 - The Plank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 May 2009 21:10:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=3779#comment-6638</guid>
		<description>[...] least interested in America acting in an exceptional way. But Mark Thompson makes a nice, subtle defense of American exceptionalism and holding our country to a high standard:Compromises sometimes really [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] least interested in America acting in an exceptional way. But Mark Thompson makes a nice, subtle defense of American exceptionalism and holding our country to a high standard:Compromises sometimes really [...]</p>
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		<title>By: You Dropped The Bomb On Me &#171; Around The Sphere</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/05/an-exceptionally-moral-united-states/#comment-6596</link>
		<dc:creator>You Dropped The Bomb On Me &#171; Around The Sphere</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 May 2009 18:36:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=3779#comment-6596</guid>
		<description>[...] UPDATE #10: Another Gentlemen, Mark Thompson. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] UPDATE #10: Another Gentlemen, Mark Thompson. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Frankensteining Globalization &#124; The League of Ordinary Gentlemen</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/05/an-exceptionally-moral-united-states/#comment-6584</link>
		<dc:creator>Frankensteining Globalization &#124; The League of Ordinary Gentlemen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 May 2009 17:54:56 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] such reflexive exceptionalism is natural bait for corrupting arrogance (just the kind that Mark has recently identified with traditional American exceptionalism) and lead to the kind of unmitigated disasters like Iraq [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] such reflexive exceptionalism is natural bait for corrupting arrogance (just the kind that Mark has recently identified with traditional American exceptionalism) and lead to the kind of unmitigated disasters like Iraq [...]</p>
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		<title>By: E.D. Kain</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/05/an-exceptionally-moral-united-states/#comment-6550</link>
		<dc:creator>E.D. Kain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 May 2009 13:33:27 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&quot;Good&quot; can also mean intervening in huge expensive wars with no end in sight....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Good&#8221; can also mean intervening in huge expensive wars with no end in sight&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: CasdraBlog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; links for 2009-05-06</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/05/an-exceptionally-moral-united-states/#comment-6549</link>
		<dc:creator>CasdraBlog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; links for 2009-05-06</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 May 2009 11:01:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=3779#comment-6549</guid>
		<description>[...] An Exceptionally Moral United States &#124; The League of Ordinary Gentlemen I&#039;m in broad agreement with this. (tags: politics torture) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] An Exceptionally Moral United States | The League of Ordinary Gentlemen I&#39;m in broad agreement with this. (tags: politics torture) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jaybird</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/05/an-exceptionally-moral-united-states/#comment-6539</link>
		<dc:creator>Jaybird</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 May 2009 00:43:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=3779#comment-6539</guid>
		<description>&quot;‘Don’t be evil,’ isn’t enough. ‘Be good,’ is important too.&quot;

I think that &quot;Don&#039;t be evil&quot; might be the business of the government. Prevent murder, rape, etc. If someone is evil, the government can put them in the Panopticon until they are ready to rejoin society. Sure.

&quot;Be good&quot;? I don&#039;t know about that. Does that mean accepting gay marriage or protecting traditional marriage? Does that mean accepting community standards or does that mean asserting a deep right to privacy? Does that mean respecting freedom of expression or does that mean protecting The Children?

&quot;Don&#039;t be evil&quot; strikes me as a great rule of thumb.

&quot;Be good&quot;? Eh. I wouldn&#039;t want you to have a single power to make me be a better person that I wouldn&#039;t want in the hands of Ted Haggard.

No offense.

That said, there are quite a few powers that I wouldn&#039;t mind you (or Ted Haggard, for that matter) having to prevent evil.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;‘Don’t be evil,’ isn’t enough. ‘Be good,’ is important too.&#8221;</p>
<p>I think that &#8220;Don&#8217;t be evil&#8221; might be the business of the government. Prevent murder, rape, etc. If someone is evil, the government can put them in the Panopticon until they are ready to rejoin society. Sure.</p>
<p>&#8220;Be good&#8221;? I don&#8217;t know about that. Does that mean accepting gay marriage or protecting traditional marriage? Does that mean accepting community standards or does that mean asserting a deep right to privacy? Does that mean respecting freedom of expression or does that mean protecting The Children?</p>
<p>&#8220;Don&#8217;t be evil&#8221; strikes me as a great rule of thumb.</p>
<p>&#8220;Be good&#8221;? Eh. I wouldn&#8217;t want you to have a single power to make me be a better person that I wouldn&#8217;t want in the hands of Ted Haggard.</p>
<p>No offense.</p>
<p>That said, there are quite a few powers that I wouldn&#8217;t mind you (or Ted Haggard, for that matter) having to prevent evil.</p>
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		<title>By: Creon Critic</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/05/an-exceptionally-moral-united-states/#comment-6531</link>
		<dc:creator>Creon Critic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 May 2009 22:01:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=3779#comment-6531</guid>
		<description>Bob Cheeks &amp; Jaybird: Consent of what proportion of the governed? Is a majority enough?  I’d see a lot more substantively in there, like equal protection under the law. I also see responsibilities to the citizen qua citizen. ‘Don’t be evil,’ isn’t enough. ‘Be good,’ is important too. Shorthand, promote human dignity. Longhand, don’t enslave, don’t torture, etc., etc., UDHR. Yes some ridicule ‘periodic holidays with pay,’ (Article 24), but in a pinch I’d say work-life balance is a fairly important thing, to the individual and the society. There are tensions, but I don’t see asserting second and third generation human rights as quashing the individual, on the whole they seem fairly empowering. In terms of first, second, and third generation rights, they’re, on the whole, interdependent and mutually reinforcing. 

Mark: To be honest, &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://www.pbs.org/newshour/essays/february00/rosenblatt_2-17.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this&lt;/A&gt; is the first thing that came to mind upon reading just the title of your post,

&lt;blockquote&gt;...the fact that many of the images are on postcards. The people who approved of or participated in these crimes sent photos of them via the U.S. mail, to share their subhuman pleasure with others. One of the postcards reads: &quot;This is the barbecue we had last night.&quot;... That ordinary people did these things is deeply disturbing; that they manufactured a social rationale for their acts is more disturbing still. Look for a while at the picture of the lynching of Rubin Stacy, Fort Lauderdale, Florida, 1930. Look first at Stacy, then turn to the little girl in the summer dress, looking at Stacy, and then to the man behind her, perhaps her father, in the spotless white shirt and slacks and the clean white skimmer. They will stand there forever, admiring the proof of their civilization.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

That is to say alongside, the founders and all that good stuff of American civilization, is the profoundly troubling – as you acknowledged “a scale with an unforgivable oversight, allowance of slavery.” But I want to make a claim that both are a part of the American identity; to me, America is ambiguous in a way that isn’t fully captured in statements like, “Other nations would not lose their identity if they ceased to be liberal democracies; the US would.” Or, “those moral ideals lie at the very foundation of what makes the US, well, the US.” 

Slavery, Jim Crow, the father-daughter pair also lie at the foundation of what makes the US the US. They are part of what make the US (like its peers &amp; their atrocities) an aspirant to the title, liberal democracy – not a rightful claimant. The project of normative exceptionalism appears to skim off the best bits, incorporate them into American identity and fail to grapple with the deep ambiguities at America’s core – well, fail to grapple in the sense that they are stepping stones, or chapters, or past, or overcome. Under a rubric of exceptionalism the brutality becomes transitory and the ideal becomes an ever present fixture; the brutal are out-of-character elements in the American experience. I’d contend that both the brutal and the sublime are ongoing themes; the brutal is never vanquished. 

This is all coming out a lot less clearly than I’d have liked, I’ll just add that Graham Greene’s &lt;i&gt;the Quiet American&lt;/i&gt; also came to mind. There’s something dangerous brewed in the mix of innocence, self-righteousness, and power that ‘American exceptionalism’ calls forth. Perhaps raft is right, exceptionalism is simply too loaded, to full of other baggage to quiet fit the gap between the ideals of America and the reality of America. “the United States is just another country,” – brings to mind the quip: Remember your unique. Just like everyone else.
 
Shorter CC: It is just as wrong to tell ourselves we’re the superhero as it is to claim we’re the supervillain. We are merely human, with all the courage and the cowardice that that entails – as is vividly evidence by the torture memos. Our carefully crafted institutions, checks and balances, are as fragile a human project as any other.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bob Cheeks &amp; Jaybird: Consent of what proportion of the governed? Is a majority enough?  I’d see a lot more substantively in there, like equal protection under the law. I also see responsibilities to the citizen qua citizen. ‘Don’t be evil,’ isn’t enough. ‘Be good,’ is important too. Shorthand, promote human dignity. Longhand, don’t enslave, don’t torture, etc., etc., UDHR. Yes some ridicule ‘periodic holidays with pay,’ (Article 24), but in a pinch I’d say work-life balance is a fairly important thing, to the individual and the society. There are tensions, but I don’t see asserting second and third generation human rights as quashing the individual, on the whole they seem fairly empowering. In terms of first, second, and third generation rights, they’re, on the whole, interdependent and mutually reinforcing. </p>
<p>Mark: To be honest, <a HREF="http://www.pbs.org/newshour/essays/february00/rosenblatt_2-17.html" rel="nofollow">this</a> is the first thing that came to mind upon reading just the title of your post,</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8230;the fact that many of the images are on postcards. The people who approved of or participated in these crimes sent photos of them via the U.S. mail, to share their subhuman pleasure with others. One of the postcards reads: &#8220;This is the barbecue we had last night.&#8221;&#8230; That ordinary people did these things is deeply disturbing; that they manufactured a social rationale for their acts is more disturbing still. Look for a while at the picture of the lynching of Rubin Stacy, Fort Lauderdale, Florida, 1930. Look first at Stacy, then turn to the little girl in the summer dress, looking at Stacy, and then to the man behind her, perhaps her father, in the spotless white shirt and slacks and the clean white skimmer. They will stand there forever, admiring the proof of their civilization.</p></blockquote>
<p>That is to say alongside, the founders and all that good stuff of American civilization, is the profoundly troubling – as you acknowledged “a scale with an unforgivable oversight, allowance of slavery.” But I want to make a claim that both are a part of the American identity; to me, America is ambiguous in a way that isn’t fully captured in statements like, “Other nations would not lose their identity if they ceased to be liberal democracies; the US would.” Or, “those moral ideals lie at the very foundation of what makes the US, well, the US.” </p>
<p>Slavery, Jim Crow, the father-daughter pair also lie at the foundation of what makes the US the US. They are part of what make the US (like its peers &amp; their atrocities) an aspirant to the title, liberal democracy – not a rightful claimant. The project of normative exceptionalism appears to skim off the best bits, incorporate them into American identity and fail to grapple with the deep ambiguities at America’s core – well, fail to grapple in the sense that they are stepping stones, or chapters, or past, or overcome. Under a rubric of exceptionalism the brutality becomes transitory and the ideal becomes an ever present fixture; the brutal are out-of-character elements in the American experience. I’d contend that both the brutal and the sublime are ongoing themes; the brutal is never vanquished. </p>
<p>This is all coming out a lot less clearly than I’d have liked, I’ll just add that Graham Greene’s <i>the Quiet American</i> also came to mind. There’s something dangerous brewed in the mix of innocence, self-righteousness, and power that ‘American exceptionalism’ calls forth. Perhaps raft is right, exceptionalism is simply too loaded, to full of other baggage to quiet fit the gap between the ideals of America and the reality of America. “the United States is just another country,” – brings to mind the quip: Remember your unique. Just like everyone else.</p>
<p>Shorter CC: It is just as wrong to tell ourselves we’re the superhero as it is to claim we’re the supervillain. We are merely human, with all the courage and the cowardice that that entails – as is vividly evidence by the torture memos. Our carefully crafted institutions, checks and balances, are as fragile a human project as any other.</p>
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		<title>By: Jaybird</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/05/an-exceptionally-moral-united-states/#comment-6511</link>
		<dc:creator>Jaybird</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 May 2009 18:01:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=3779#comment-6511</guid>
		<description>&quot;what obligations does the central gov’t have for her citizens?&quot;

Well, the primary answer seems to me to be &quot;to govern with the consent of the governed.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;what obligations does the central gov’t have for her citizens?&#8221;</p>
<p>Well, the primary answer seems to me to be &#8220;to govern with the consent of the governed.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Cheeks</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/05/an-exceptionally-moral-united-states/#comment-6509</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Cheeks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 May 2009 17:45:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=3779#comment-6509</guid>
		<description>Jaybird: excellent differentiation. Question: what obligations does the central gov&#039;t have for her citizens?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jaybird: excellent differentiation. Question: what obligations does the central gov&#8217;t have for her citizens?</p>
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