I think the point he means to press, however, is that however much we atheists believe in a godless universe, we also must encounter moments of doubt in that belief, and he is surely right, is he not?

I couldn’t agree more… ;-)

Talk about faith all you like, Kain, but is it truly necessary for you to malign and misrepresent atheism?

You also should not speak for all atheists. E.D. is quite close to the mark in his representation of atheism. The adjustment he misses is the replacement of the concept of faith with belief, whch more aptly describes atheists relationship to God’s non-existence. I’m not sure if E.D. is insisting that whatever atheists believe about their beliefs about God, there is nonetheless an element of faith in them, which would be his right to contend if he believes it. But i don’t think he would deny that most atheists believe that they have persuasive reasons to believe that God does not exist. That is contrary to religious people, some of whom believe they have reasons to believe in God, but others of whom rely on faith. I think he is drawing an analogy, or at least focusing more on the similarity between belief and faith, rather than on the difference. But I don;t think he would deny the difference, since faith — independent of reasoned belief and despite doubt — is an important part of what we call “Faith,” i.e., belief in God.

I think the point he means to press, however, is that however much we atheists believe in a godless universe, we also must encounter moments of doubt in that belief, and he is surely right, is he not?

I think you may be misunderstanding Daniel here. A vital part of faith is skepticism as regards human wisdom, and humility (which he cited as produced by faith) caused by an undestanding that human beings are deeply, deeply fallible. Forgetting the fact of human fallibility, particularly that of what Christians call original sin, is the key flaw in many political ideologies including communism, liberal humanism, and whatever you want to term Bush’s freedom-fixes-everything delusion. However, that comes coupled with faith in God’s complete infallibility; doubting God may be an irremovable part of faith, due to human weakness, but that does not of necessity make it a positive one.

Absolutism, the absence of doubt, is not always wrong. Sometimes change can only be brought by those who recognize evil for what it is. On some things – slavery, torture, abortion – the only moral position is the one that states these things are wrong. How many people here think torture should be “safe, legal and rare” (more or less the PoV expressed by the memos)?

Snort. Dude. There are issues of Focus on the Family magazine that contain names of relatives of mine. On the masthead. I have had relatives appear as guests on Doctor Dobson’s show. Featured guests.

I have done Christmas Eve at their houses in the past. I reckon that I will do Christmas Eve at their houses in the future. And you know what? My atheism will not come up. This is due to my not using phrases that begin with “You People” anywhere *NEAR* as much as I would like to and instead changing the subject to stuff like “grandkids” or “nephews” or “cats”.

Yelling “HEY BUDDY! WANNA PLAY DINOSAURS?” to the nephew and playing dinosaurs helps. Not saying “you know that these things existed millions of years before the first humans” and instead saying “RAR RAR RAR” during play also helps.

“Since you never talk about your atheism, apparently, you haven’t discovered which among them are primed to give you a hard time about it. Try coming out of the closet sometime.”

Wow. My first inclination was to write something like “go fuck yourself” and then I realized that I must have stuff back there that I haven’t dealt with yet if such a response immediately comes to the fore.

Hrm. I still have work to do.

Anyway, I will instead point out that atheism, for me, is like not collecting stamps. There isn’t a God. This really isn’t that interesting enough for me to get people to stop believing that they’ll see their dead loved ones again in order to… I don’t know. In order to prove a point.

Now, you may ask, why am I arguing with you, if I don’t care? Well, it’s like that scene in The Last Unicorn where the wizard is talking to the skeleton on the mantle. “Why do you want to drink wine? You’ve got no tongue, no belly.”

Dude. I CAN REMEMBER.

Any how, this argument is like that. I remember.

“And I’m telling you that’s pretty stupid. There’s little connection between the two.”

Heh. Sure. You’ll see, someday. Or you won’t. It’s all good.

“We were talking about having doubt, not hiding doubt, remember?”

I do indeed.

And when you act with the same amount of certainty as the Focus Folks, when you mention your doubt like you’re reading off the Lord’s Prayer, when you constantly quote the texts that help you make it through the day… you are hiding your doubt under a bushel.

But, dude. Don’t think that I’m telling you to change.

I’m just pointing stuff out to you.

He that has ears to hear, let him hear.

I guess what I’m asking is this – can you point to a prominent atheist, someone with public thoughts on his atheism, that you think is the kind of atheist you’re trying to convince me exists. Then I can look up their thoughts and writings, and see if you’re right about their atheism being religious, or whatever.

Belief really should have nothing to do with it.

Going to Christmas Eve at the home of a loved one and talking about them is so much more wonderful than going there and talking about me.

Like I said, I’m glad you have the freedom not to talk about yourself. Your family is clearly not burdened by evangelical Christians. Sadly, mine is.

My atheism predates your venerated book.

Sigh. Don’t miss the forest for the trees, ok? Dawkins wasn’t the first. He’s just an example. Unless you’re more than 3000 years old, the point is that it was the mouthy, won’t-shut-up-about-it atheists who created the space you live in now, the space where you can be an atheist and nobody cares about it. (Though I suspect that some of the people who know you don’t actually know you’re an atheist and would care very much that you are. Probably some people in your family, too. Since you never talk about your atheism, apparently, you haven’t discovered which among them are primed to give you a hard time about it. Try coming out of the closet sometime.)

I’m just telling you that passion and temperment belie the amount of certainty.

And I’m telling you that’s pretty stupid. There’s little connection between the two.

You’re doing a very good job of hiding your doubt under a bushel.

Woah woah woah! Somebody stop those goalposts, Jayhawk is trying to run away with them!

We were talking about having doubt, not hiding doubt, remember?