Comments on: Hate Crimes and the homeless http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/05/hate-crimes-and-the-homeless/ Mon, 22 Mar 2010 02:22:26 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Silly Arguments Against Hate Crimes? « Upturned Earth http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/05/hate-crimes-and-the-homeless/#comment-7001 Silly Arguments Against Hate Crimes? « Upturned Earth Mon, 11 May 2009 22:22:31 +0000 http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=4040#comment-7001 [...] Arguments Against Hate Crimes? Responding to what I take to include my criticisms of laws defining “hate crimes” against the homeless, Ordinary Gentleman Will writes: [...] [...] Arguments Against Hate Crimes? Responding to what I take to include my criticisms of laws defining “hate crimes” against the homeless, Ordinary Gentleman Will writes: [...]

]]> By: Silly Arguments Against Hate Crimes Legislation | The League of Ordinary Gentlemen http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/05/hate-crimes-and-the-homeless/#comment-6994 Silly Arguments Against Hate Crimes Legislation | The League of Ordinary Gentlemen Mon, 11 May 2009 21:28:18 +0000 http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=4040#comment-6994 [...] No, we probably shouldn’t be in the business of creating special protections for homeless victims, but this latest bout of legislative idiocy has provoked some uncommonly silly responses. [...] [...] No, we probably shouldn’t be in the business of creating special protections for homeless victims, but this latest bout of legislative idiocy has provoked some uncommonly silly responses. [...]

]]> By: Jaybird http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/05/hate-crimes-and-the-homeless/#comment-6992 Jaybird Mon, 11 May 2009 20:47:00 +0000 http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=4040#comment-6992 Rephrased more seriously: Is the problem when it comes to attacks on the homeless really something likely to be fixed by additional laws? I've no doubt that the biggest problem when it comes to attacks on the homeless have to do with the fact that the homeless are troubled in the first place. Let's say that one is murdered. How long is it likely before the body is found? How much effort is the police really going to put into trying to find the attacker in the absence of people calling the detective every day asking for updates? Given the sheer number of crimes that happen every day, how likely is it that a detective or officer is likely to move the file to "cold cases" and work on the crime involving a taxpayer whose cousin is a lawyer or whose sister-in-law works downtown with the spouse of one of the Assistant DAs? The hate crime seems to be a way to say "Hey! Look! We're doing something to help this particularly pitiful and overlooked segment of society!" that will, in reality, do nothing to help with the aforementioned problems. It just says "see? We're doing something!" when, really... they aren't. Rephrased more seriously:

Is the problem when it comes to attacks on the homeless really something likely to be fixed by additional laws?

I’ve no doubt that the biggest problem when it comes to attacks on the homeless have to do with the fact that the homeless are troubled in the first place. Let’s say that one is murdered. How long is it likely before the body is found? How much effort is the police really going to put into trying to find the attacker in the absence of people calling the detective every day asking for updates? Given the sheer number of crimes that happen every day, how likely is it that a detective or officer is likely to move the file to “cold cases” and work on the crime involving a taxpayer whose cousin is a lawyer or whose sister-in-law works downtown with the spouse of one of the Assistant DAs?

The hate crime seems to be a way to say “Hey! Look! We’re doing something to help this particularly pitiful and overlooked segment of society!” that will, in reality, do nothing to help with the aforementioned problems.

It just says “see? We’re doing something!” when, really… they aren’t.

]]> By: sidereal http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/05/hate-crimes-and-the-homeless/#comment-6991 sidereal Mon, 11 May 2009 20:46:18 +0000 http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=4040#comment-6991 Surely the animating impulse in these crimes isn't 'hatred' towards homeless people, or at least not usually. Homeless people are targeted because they're easy targets. They're available (being in the street), they're often mentally ill, and they often have no one to turn to when under threat. I'm not sure how that squares with a hate crime law. I think the desire for hate crimes legislation stems from a fear of being the target of impersonal assault. Essentially, being targeted for something you have no control over. Nearly all property crime is impersonal, of course, but people seem to have a particular fear of impersonal violence. If anyone is aggregating a poll, I'm opposed. I don't like hate crime legislation in general, on the principle that less law is better barring a compelling need, and I believe existing criminal law handles hate crimes without compelling additional need. Surely the animating impulse in these crimes isn’t ‘hatred’ towards homeless people, or at least not usually. Homeless people are targeted because they’re easy targets. They’re available (being in the street), they’re often mentally ill, and they often have no one to turn to when under threat. I’m not sure how that squares with a hate crime law. I think the desire for hate crimes legislation stems from a fear of being the target of impersonal assault. Essentially, being targeted for something you have no control over. Nearly all property crime is impersonal, of course, but people seem to have a particular fear of impersonal violence.

If anyone is aggregating a poll, I’m opposed. I don’t like hate crime legislation in general, on the principle that less law is better barring a compelling need, and I believe existing criminal law handles hate crimes without compelling additional need.

]]> By: E.D. Kain http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/05/hate-crimes-and-the-homeless/#comment-6990 E.D. Kain Mon, 11 May 2009 20:40:42 +0000 http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=4040#comment-6990 James - I edited the CSS to make the gravatars fit in this particular manner. The theme itself didn't come with any gravatar capabilities so I had the option to write it in myself and yeah, it looks pretty good I think....thanks. James – I edited the CSS to make the gravatars fit in this particular manner. The theme itself didn’t come with any gravatar capabilities so I had the option to write it in myself and yeah, it looks pretty good I think….thanks.

]]> By: Jaybird http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/05/hate-crimes-and-the-homeless/#comment-6988 Jaybird Mon, 11 May 2009 20:31:35 +0000 http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=4040#comment-6988 Is this a solution looking for a problem, in this case? Have there been a number of pyrotaks against the homeless resulting in acquittals? Inadequate sentences being handed out to alleged pyrotackers in cases where the homeless are pyrotackees? Is this a solution looking for a problem, in this case?

Have there been a number of pyrotaks against the homeless resulting in acquittals? Inadequate sentences being handed out to alleged pyrotackers in cases where the homeless are pyrotackees?

]]> By: James Joyner http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/05/hate-crimes-and-the-homeless/#comment-6987 James Joyner Mon, 11 May 2009 20:31:34 +0000 http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=4040#comment-6987 I agree intent matters but not sure that motivation does, unless it's in mitigation (they're about to kill you and a torch is your only handy weapon). Not sure why "I hate bums" is any worse a motivator than "I find lighting people on fire amusing." Sidebar - Your commenters are much more Gravatar-friendly than mine, for whatever reason. Maybe it's the Gravatar signup? I agree intent matters but not sure that motivation does, unless it’s in mitigation (they’re about to kill you and a torch is your only handy weapon). Not sure why “I hate bums” is any worse a motivator than “I find lighting people on fire amusing.”

Sidebar – Your commenters are much more Gravatar-friendly than mine, for whatever reason. Maybe it’s the Gravatar signup?

]]> By: E.D. Kain http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/05/hate-crimes-and-the-homeless/#comment-6985 E.D. Kain Mon, 11 May 2009 20:12:33 +0000 http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=4040#comment-6985 So what about "hate" crimes being broadly applied to anyone who was the victim of a crime based solely on hate. We already make exceptions for all sorts of various intents. What if there were no limits - as in, black people, gays, and the homeless were all treated exactly same as anyone else....? Sort of like how pre-meditated crimes generally face harsher punishment than off the cuff crimes. It does seem that it should matter why someone is hurt or killed. So what about “hate” crimes being broadly applied to anyone who was the victim of a crime based solely on hate. We already make exceptions for all sorts of various intents. What if there were no limits – as in, black people, gays, and the homeless were all treated exactly same as anyone else….? Sort of like how pre-meditated crimes generally face harsher punishment than off the cuff crimes. It does seem that it should matter why someone is hurt or killed.

]]> By: Homeless Hate Crimes http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/05/hate-crimes-and-the-homeless/#comment-6984 Homeless Hate Crimes Mon, 11 May 2009 20:07:38 +0000 http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=4040#comment-6984 [...] E.D. Kain retorts, “I’ve heard of (rare) cases where homeless are lit on fire or beaten, essentially just for being transients.  Something to keep in mind . . . .” [...] [...] E.D. Kain retorts, “I’ve heard of (rare) cases where homeless are lit on fire or beaten, essentially just for being transients.  Something to keep in mind . . . .” [...]

]]> By: Mike at The Big Stick http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/05/hate-crimes-and-the-homeless/#comment-6983 Mike at The Big Stick Mon, 11 May 2009 20:07:36 +0000 http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=4040#comment-6983 'Tis the slippery slope of singling out certain members of our society for special protections. ‘Tis the slippery slope of singling out certain members of our society for special protections.

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