Comments on: Liar, Liar: Jim Carrey and the Misinformation About Vaccines and Autism http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/05/liar-liar-jim-carrey-and-the-misinformation-about-vaccines-and-autism/ Mon, 22 Mar 2010 00:38:32 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Jennifer http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/05/liar-liar-jim-carrey-and-the-misinformation-about-vaccines-and-autism/#comment-16906 Jennifer Mon, 10 Aug 2009 21:38:44 +0000 http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=3889#comment-16906 While I agree that celebrities do not have all of the information and should not necessarily be dispensing medical advice, I think your piece is one sided. The CDC just released a statement from an internal memo that indicated that this year the incidence of vaccine induced injuries out-numbered the diseases they seek to prevent. While some would say that the diseases are down because of the vaccines, but at what cost? Vaccine injury, whether that is autism or other dissorders, does exist. Recently an MD on the board of the NIH stated that the vaccine and autism/spectral dissorders link should be further investigated and that it is not yet fully understood. The most dangerous thing in the scientific world is the right answer to the wrong question. The problem with vaccines is that we have just that, the wright answer, but the wrong question. Yes, these diseases are greatly reduced. That is the right answer. However, when vaccine research began, the wrong question was posed. And that was how do we reduce the incidence of disease? WRONG QUESTION!! The right question would be how do we improve the host tolerance to the disease and thereby reduce the damaging effects of the disease without impairing the host? Better Question. To date, we have no answer to this question. At least not one that makes billions of dollars for drug companies and millions in governement tax revenue. And until we do, I will not vaccinate my children and risk injury or long term impairment of their full potential. While I agree that celebrities do not have all of the information and should not necessarily be dispensing medical advice, I think your piece is one sided. The CDC just released a statement from an internal memo that indicated that this year the incidence of vaccine induced injuries out-numbered the diseases they seek to prevent. While some would say that the diseases are down because of the vaccines, but at what cost? Vaccine injury, whether that is autism or other dissorders, does exist. Recently an MD on the board of the NIH stated that the vaccine and autism/spectral dissorders link should be further investigated and that it is not yet fully understood. The most dangerous thing in the scientific world is the right answer to the wrong question. The problem with vaccines is that we have just that, the wright answer, but the wrong question. Yes, these diseases are greatly reduced. That is the right answer. However, when vaccine research began, the wrong question was posed. And that was how do we reduce the incidence of disease? WRONG QUESTION!! The right question would be how do we improve the host tolerance to the disease and thereby reduce the damaging effects of the disease without impairing the host? Better Question. To date, we have no answer to this question. At least not one that makes billions of dollars for drug companies and millions in governement tax revenue. And until we do, I will not vaccinate my children and risk injury or long term impairment of their full potential.

]]> By: Julean Rai http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/05/liar-liar-jim-carrey-and-the-misinformation-about-vaccines-and-autism/#comment-10585 Julean Rai Sun, 21 Jun 2009 02:20:24 +0000 http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=3889#comment-10585 Hey Justin... (Sorry for those who spent a good deal of money for the, but...) -Who cares of your credentials? Good thinking. :) -J Hey Justin…

(Sorry for those who spent a good deal of money for the, but…)

-Who cares of your credentials?

Good thinking. :)

-J

]]> By: Justin http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/05/liar-liar-jim-carrey-and-the-misinformation-about-vaccines-and-autism/#comment-10555 Justin Sat, 20 Jun 2009 03:59:52 +0000 http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=3889#comment-10555 Julean, I appreciated several of your points. They made me come up with some musings of my own: Questioning the safety of vaccination is not a public danger, as many seem to imply, but a healthy part of debate that may lead us to find real answers. Medical science, while amazing and a tool for so much that is good in this world, is not infallible. Its advancement is dependent on people asking questions. Is it not by asking a question and turning it into a hypothesis to be tested that the scientific process begins? For my own part, I am not dead set against vaccinations, but I do have some questions about the health of vaccinations based on my own experience of processing into the Army. Part of medical inprocessing includes receiving a vast array of vaccinations in the space of about 20 minutes. I don't know what vaccinations they were, or recall exactly how many, but it was somewhere close to 10. Within about 2 days, almost all of us in my company were sick in some form or other, and remained so throughout most of the next 9 weeks of training. This of course had something to do with the stresses involved in the training, but I am reasonably certain that the vaccines had something to do with it as well. I don't believe I have suffered lasting harm from these vaccines, but it seems plausible that over- vaccination could have negative effects on an infant or small child whose body mass is many times smaller than an adult's. I am sure that the Army medical community would claim that there is "no scientific evidence linking illness among basic trainees to multiple vaccinations," but that could simply mean that none has yet been fully documented. The process of documentation quite often starts when someone asks a questions such as why so many recruits get sick after being vaccinated, leading to further study and hopefully some scientific answers. Like them or not, people asking questions like those represented on Jim Carrey's website, are an essential part of public debate. While it clearly is true that Jim Carrey's commentaries on science are not any more valid because he is a celebrity, it is equally true that they cannot simply be dismissed because he is a celebrity. Julean, I appreciated several of your points. They made me come up with some musings of my own: Questioning the safety of vaccination is not a public danger, as many seem to imply, but a healthy part of debate that may lead us to find real answers. Medical science, while amazing and a tool for so much that is good in this world, is not infallible. Its advancement is dependent on people asking questions. Is it not by asking a question and turning it into a hypothesis to be tested that the scientific process begins?
For my own part, I am not dead set against vaccinations, but I do have some questions about the health of vaccinations based on my own experience of processing into the Army. Part of medical inprocessing includes receiving a vast array of vaccinations in the space of about 20 minutes. I don’t know what vaccinations they were, or recall exactly how many, but it was somewhere close to 10. Within about 2 days, almost all of us in my company were sick in some form or other, and remained so throughout most of the next 9 weeks of training. This of course had something to do with the stresses involved in the training, but I am reasonably certain that the vaccines had something to do with it as well. I don’t believe I have suffered lasting harm from these vaccines, but it seems plausible that over- vaccination could have negative effects on an infant or small child whose body mass is many times smaller than an adult’s. I am sure that the Army medical community would claim that there is “no scientific evidence linking illness among basic trainees to multiple vaccinations,” but that could simply mean that none has yet been fully documented. The process of documentation quite often starts when someone asks a questions such as why so many recruits get sick after being vaccinated, leading to further study and hopefully some scientific answers.
Like them or not, people asking questions like those represented on Jim Carrey’s website, are an essential part of public debate.
While it clearly is true that Jim Carrey’s commentaries on science are not any more valid because he is a celebrity, it is equally true that they cannot simply be dismissed because he is a celebrity.

]]> By: The Difficult Cloudy Middle of Abortion | The League of Ordinary Gentlemen http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/05/liar-liar-jim-carrey-and-the-misinformation-about-vaccines-and-autism/#comment-7678 The Difficult Cloudy Middle of Abortion | The League of Ordinary Gentlemen Mon, 25 May 2009 18:38:47 +0000 http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=3889#comment-7678 [...] idiocy is an intriguing concept, so I couldn’t help but follow the above link.  (Being no great fan of HuffPo’s intellectual bona fides probably contributed to my curiosity.)  It led to a not particularly bright commentary by Martha [...] [...] idiocy is an intriguing concept, so I couldn’t help but follow the above link.  (Being no great fan of HuffPo’s intellectual bona fides probably contributed to my curiosity.)  It led to a not particularly bright commentary by Martha [...]

]]> By: Sara http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/05/liar-liar-jim-carrey-and-the-misinformation-about-vaccines-and-autism/#comment-7152 Sara Thu, 14 May 2009 12:22:07 +0000 http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=3889#comment-7152 I really appreciate these kinds of articles. It is very hard to know who to believe these days! With Carrey and McCarthey just on Larry King with doctors supporting their claims, and many others against them, it's hard to know which ones to believe. All of the doctors/pediatricians are supposedly credible, so what do you really do about your children and their health concerns? I'm starting to believe in spacing out the vaccines, but still making sure they are all given. I very much rely on information and articles like these with the comments and links after them to help make up my mind, because sometimes doing research yourself isn't enough...there is so much information that seems credible on both sides, who do I believe? I hope this can be figured out soon! I really appreciate these kinds of articles. It is very hard to know who to believe these days! With Carrey and McCarthey just on Larry King with doctors supporting their claims, and many others against them, it’s hard to know which ones to believe. All of the doctors/pediatricians are supposedly credible, so what do you really do about your children and their health concerns? I’m starting to believe in spacing out the vaccines, but still making sure they are all given. I very much rely on information and articles like these with the comments and links after them to help make up my mind, because sometimes doing research yourself isn’t enough…there is so much information that seems credible on both sides, who do I believe? I hope this can be figured out soon!

]]> By: Liar, Liar: Jim Carrey and the Misinformation About Vaccines and Autism « Planet Nora http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/05/liar-liar-jim-carrey-and-the-misinformation-about-vaccines-and-autism/#comment-6951 Liar, Liar: Jim Carrey and the Misinformation About Vaccines and Autism « Planet Nora Mon, 11 May 2009 12:24:22 +0000 http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=3889#comment-6951 [...] Comment! Read here. [...] [...] Comment! Read here. [...]

]]> By: AutismNewsBeat.com http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/05/liar-liar-jim-carrey-and-the-misinformation-about-vaccines-and-autism/#comment-6933 AutismNewsBeat.com Sun, 10 May 2009 15:28:14 +0000 http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=3889#comment-6933 Lisa, you wrote "… why are the vaccine makers exempt from lawsuits?" They are not exempt. The US Federal Court of Claims was set up in the early 1980s to make it easier for parents of vaccine injured children to receive fair and prompt compensation. But parents who sue vaccine makers directly waive their rights to be heard in Vaccine Court, where the standard of proof is much lower than in civil court. In the last few years a Maryland court heard two well publicized vaccine cases: Sykes v. Bayer, and Blackwell v. Wyeth. Lisa, you wrote “… why are the vaccine makers exempt from lawsuits?” They are not exempt. The US Federal Court of Claims was set up in the early 1980s to make it easier for parents of vaccine injured children to receive fair and prompt compensation. But parents who sue vaccine makers directly waive their rights to be heard in Vaccine Court, where the standard of proof is much lower than in civil court. In the last few years a Maryland court heard two well publicized vaccine cases: Sykes v. Bayer, and Blackwell v. Wyeth.

]]> By: Stan http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/05/liar-liar-jim-carrey-and-the-misinformation-about-vaccines-and-autism/#comment-6931 Stan Sun, 10 May 2009 14:32:11 +0000 http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=3889#comment-6931 Mara wrote "Stan, if you want to weigh the risk of your child being harmed by vaccine x vs. your child being harmed by disease x that has been virtually eradicated by vaccine x, then what you are saying is that you want to hedge your kids’ bets on the backs of all the kids who do get vaccinated. Under that scenario, the only way your unvaccinated kid is safe (and I’m speaking hypothetically here; I know you choose to vaccinate) is if most kids are vaccinated." All I'm saying is that I want to simply know the truth, which is what is this risk of this vaccine and how does that compare to the risk of getting the disease today. You seem to be saying that if I know the truth then I am going to hedge my bet and not go with the vaccine, and that therefore it's necessary for the public health establishment to keep the truth from people so they don't hedge their bets. This is exactly what I suspect the public health establishment does. But once they do this, then you have to ask, what else do they keep from you and how can you trust them? Seriously, with this mindset of worrying that people are going to hedge their bets and opt out, it creates a situation where is a vaccine really is harmful there would -- in all likelihood -- be an enormous, if not unrealistic, burden of proof required for that information to go public, which is why, I am skeptical of these autism studies. I'm not saying there's a conspiracy. I just think the interest of the greater good isn't always inline with the interest of the individual, and in cases like those, those who work for the greater good often have an incentive to downplay individual risk. And that makes me nervous. Mara wrote “Stan, if you want to weigh the risk of your child being harmed by vaccine x vs. your child being harmed by disease x that has been virtually eradicated by vaccine x, then what you are saying is that you want to hedge your kids’ bets on the backs of all the kids who do get vaccinated. Under that scenario, the only way your unvaccinated kid is safe (and I’m speaking hypothetically here; I know you choose to vaccinate) is if most kids are vaccinated.”

All I’m saying is that I want to simply know the truth, which is what is this risk of this vaccine and how does that compare to the risk of getting the disease today.

You seem to be saying that if I know the truth then I am going to hedge my bet and not go with the vaccine, and that therefore it’s necessary for the public health establishment to keep the truth from people so they don’t hedge their bets.

This is exactly what I suspect the public health establishment does.

But once they do this, then you have to ask, what else do they keep from you and how can you trust them? Seriously, with this mindset of worrying that people are going to hedge their bets and opt out, it creates a situation where is a vaccine really is harmful there would — in all likelihood — be an enormous, if not unrealistic, burden of proof required for that information to go public, which is why, I am skeptical of these autism studies.

I’m not saying there’s a conspiracy. I just think the interest of the greater good isn’t always inline with the interest of the individual, and in cases like those, those who work for the greater good often have an incentive to downplay individual risk.

And that makes me nervous.

]]> By: Dan Summers http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/05/liar-liar-jim-carrey-and-the-misinformation-about-vaccines-and-autism/#comment-6930 Dan Summers Sun, 10 May 2009 13:51:00 +0000 http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=3889#comment-6930 Wow. Take a long weekend, and Andrew Sullivan links to your piece. Figures. Thanks to everyone that's commented so far. I have a couple of follow-up comments of my own, then I'll fade out again. 1) It does not particular harm if individual, reliable parents choose to space out the vaccines. Sadly, a great many parents are not reliable. The current vaccination schedule is designed to maximize the protection for all children as efficiently as possible to prevent the return of numerous illnesses. Many pediatricians (myself included) accommodate parents who wish to space vaccines (which is no inconvenience to me... I have to be in the office, one way or the other). However, while spacing the vaccines does no particular harm, neither does it accomplish any particular good. Vaccines don't cause autism, and all that is accomplished by spacing them is allaying the fears about non-existent harms spread by the likes of Jim Carrey. 2) Of course it is possible that Mr. Carrey is facile with complicated molecular biology, its jargon and its analysis. It strikes me as singularly implausible, but perhaps he's done a lot of studying between films. What is not possible is that he understands the science and believes that it supports his claims. As I said in my original post, the vast majority of the science available at the website he directs you to has nothing to do with the vaccine question at all, and much of it isn't even related to autism. Mr. Carrey either misunderstands or misrepresents the science. No other explanation is possible. Wow. Take a long weekend, and Andrew Sullivan links to your piece. Figures.

Thanks to everyone that’s commented so far. I have a couple of follow-up comments of my own, then I’ll fade out again.

1) It does not particular harm if individual, reliable parents choose to space out the vaccines. Sadly, a great many parents are not reliable. The current vaccination schedule is designed to maximize the protection for all children as efficiently as possible to prevent the return of numerous illnesses. Many pediatricians (myself included) accommodate parents who wish to space vaccines (which is no inconvenience to me… I have to be in the office, one way or the other). However, while spacing the vaccines does no particular harm, neither does it accomplish any particular good. Vaccines don’t cause autism, and all that is accomplished by spacing them is allaying the fears about non-existent harms spread by the likes of Jim Carrey.

2) Of course it is possible that Mr. Carrey is facile with complicated molecular biology, its jargon and its analysis. It strikes me as singularly implausible, but perhaps he’s done a lot of studying between films. What is not possible is that he understands the science and believes that it supports his claims. As I said in my original post, the vast majority of the science available at the website he directs you to has nothing to do with the vaccine question at all, and much of it isn’t even related to autism. Mr. Carrey either misunderstands or misrepresents the science. No other explanation is possible.

]]> By: Scott H. Payne http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/05/liar-liar-jim-carrey-and-the-misinformation-about-vaccines-and-autism/#comment-6928 Scott H. Payne Sun, 10 May 2009 09:40:50 +0000 http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=3889#comment-6928 Thanks for all the fantastic comments on this piece, folks, and the wonderful conversation that has been generated. There were; however, a couple of comments that I had to delete because they simply had nothing to do with the content of the post. Should you have any questions, please feel free to visit our <a href="http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/commenting-policy/" rel="nofollow">commenting policy</a> for the very basic guidelines we request commeters follow on the site. Cheers, Scott Thanks for all the fantastic comments on this piece, folks, and the wonderful conversation that has been generated. There were; however, a couple of comments that I had to delete because they simply had nothing to do with the content of the post.

Should you have any questions, please feel free to visit our commenting policy for the very basic guidelines we request commeters follow on the site.

Cheers,
Scott

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