Comments on: Teachers Unions, Performance Pay, and Autonomy http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/05/teachers-unions-performance-pay-and-autonomy/ Fri, 19 Mar 2010 15:14:29 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: F.D. Aigner http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/05/teachers-unions-performance-pay-and-autonomy/#comment-7659 F.D. Aigner Sun, 24 May 2009 12:16:24 +0000 http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=3855#comment-7659 I came across this thread after searching for "teachers" and "chattel". I came to teaching after being in the civil engineering field, and I've been at it for 14 years. I am still shocked at how poor the working conditions are for most teachers... how many professionals do you know who get, maybe, a bathroom break every 4 hours? 15 minutes for lunch? No prep time? A buddy who is an attorney and has approximately the same amount of education I do is constantly amazed (and not in a good way) when I regale him with stories of the indignities to which we're subjected as a profession. Imagine an attorney being given no prep time by his firm! I'm now contemplating leaving the field and going back to civil engineering, and the only thing that has kept me from doing so are my students. I love 'em. Teaching is way more fun than sitting at a drafting table. But there's a limit to what anyone who considers themselves a professional can take, and education's getting worse, not better. The standardization that is happening is ruining the field, and if there was one crux, one nadir, I'd say it comes down to people pretending that education is a science. It isn't. Get over it. A typical study I read recently used kids in another classroom from a different year as the control. Absolutely laughable, that one is. Another highly-touted education thinktanker released a study in which all the research she cited was her own. So, her research was correct because she previously said it was. Laughable. I came across this thread after searching for “teachers” and “chattel”. I came to teaching after being in the civil engineering field, and I’ve been at it for 14 years. I am still shocked at how poor the working conditions are for most teachers… how many professionals do you know who get, maybe, a bathroom break every 4 hours? 15 minutes for lunch? No prep time? A buddy who is an attorney and has approximately the same amount of education I do is constantly amazed (and not in a good way) when I regale him with stories of the indignities to which we’re subjected as a profession. Imagine an attorney being given no prep time by his firm! I’m now contemplating leaving the field and going back to civil engineering, and the only thing that has kept me from doing so are my students. I love ‘em. Teaching is way more fun than sitting at a drafting table. But there’s a limit to what anyone who considers themselves a professional can take, and education’s getting worse, not better. The standardization that is happening is ruining the field, and if there was one crux, one nadir, I’d say it comes down to people pretending that education is a science. It isn’t. Get over it. A typical study I read recently used kids in another classroom from a different year as the control. Absolutely laughable, that one is. Another highly-touted education thinktanker released a study in which all the research she cited was her own. So, her research was correct because she previously said it was. Laughable.

]]> By: E.D. Kain http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/05/teachers-unions-performance-pay-and-autonomy/#comment-6800 E.D. Kain Fri, 08 May 2009 14:51:13 +0000 http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=3855#comment-6800 Totally, Mike. And that's what they've done to some degree at the University here - implementing a one-year "fast track" program to get people who already have degrees and work in other fields teaching. I think it's a very good response to this need - and we need more things like it, involving the universities, schools, and the private sector in coming up with creative ways to ensure quality and flexibility. Totally, Mike. And that’s what they’ve done to some degree at the University here – implementing a one-year “fast track” program to get people who already have degrees and work in other fields teaching. I think it’s a very good response to this need – and we need more things like it, involving the universities, schools, and the private sector in coming up with creative ways to ensure quality and flexibility.

]]> By: Mike at The Big Stick http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/05/teachers-unions-performance-pay-and-autonomy/#comment-6799 Mike at The Big Stick Fri, 08 May 2009 14:47:16 +0000 http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=3855#comment-6799 E.D. I'm not suggesting we scrap the whole system. I'm suggesting that alternative certification would be a nice way to augment the current system. I think the passion that comes with someone leaving their field to teach for a couple of years would be infectious. The problem is (and I don't mean this to sound like a conspiracy theory) that the universities and the school systems are in cahoots together. Both fiercely resist the notion that someone can be a good teacher without graduate certification. I would be a lot more willing to accept the MA requirement if teachers were required to get their undergrads in the subject they are going to teach. At the University of Louisville, for example, if you are going through the MA program to teach social studies, they make you take a couple of economics classes, a couple of geography classes and a couple of history classes. I don't think that is enough preparation. I think a 4-year program where you are preparing to teach a specific subject is ideal. I'm sure they exist, but most BA programs are generic 'elementary education' or 'secondary education' degrees which over-emphasize teaching techniques and under-emphasize subject matter. I know a girl who took 2 college-level psychology classes, got ehr MA and now teaches college credit Psych 101 in a local highschool. That's pretty messed up. E.D.

I’m not suggesting we scrap the whole system. I’m suggesting that alternative certification would be a nice way to augment the current system. I think the passion that comes with someone leaving their field to teach for a couple of years would be infectious. The problem is (and I don’t mean this to sound like a conspiracy theory) that the universities and the school systems are in cahoots together. Both fiercely resist the notion that someone can be a good teacher without graduate certification.

I would be a lot more willing to accept the MA requirement if teachers were required to get their undergrads in the subject they are going to teach. At the University of Louisville, for example, if you are going through the MA program to teach social studies, they make you take a couple of economics classes, a couple of geography classes and a couple of history classes. I don’t think that is enough preparation.

I think a 4-year program where you are preparing to teach a specific subject is ideal. I’m sure they exist, but most BA programs are generic ‘elementary education’ or ’secondary education’ degrees which over-emphasize teaching techniques and under-emphasize subject matter. I know a girl who took 2 college-level psychology classes, got ehr MA and now teaches college credit Psych 101 in a local highschool. That’s pretty messed up.

]]> By: Jaybird http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/05/teachers-unions-performance-pay-and-autonomy/#comment-6790 Jaybird Fri, 08 May 2009 14:16:53 +0000 http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=3855#comment-6790 There's a joke that gets told from time to time in IT (elsewhere too, probably). "Job Requirements: Master Electrician. Job Description: Changing Lightbulbs, Plugging/unplugging extension cords." What are the teachers *REALLY* doing? What are the *REAL* requirements for what they are really doing? Does an MA provide these things, really? It seems more to me that the students in this part of town might need a teacher with an MA, sure... but the teachers in that part of town need little more than a BA in child psych and the ability to read ahead one chapter in the textbook. Setting standards for educator excellence that apply to the Prep school and making this the standard for every school strikes me as a great way to ensure failure... for the people who don't go to the schools in this part of town. There’s a joke that gets told from time to time in IT (elsewhere too, probably).

“Job Requirements: Master Electrician. Job Description: Changing Lightbulbs, Plugging/unplugging extension cords.”

What are the teachers *REALLY* doing? What are the *REAL* requirements for what they are really doing? Does an MA provide these things, really?

It seems more to me that the students in this part of town might need a teacher with an MA, sure… but the teachers in that part of town need little more than a BA in child psych and the ability to read ahead one chapter in the textbook. Setting standards for educator excellence that apply to the Prep school and making this the standard for every school strikes me as a great way to ensure failure… for the people who don’t go to the schools in this part of town.

]]> By: E.D. Kain http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/05/teachers-unions-performance-pay-and-autonomy/#comment-6780 E.D. Kain Fri, 08 May 2009 13:32:02 +0000 http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=3855#comment-6780 Mike - yes but that's certainly not the only thing they do for four years. There is a lot of area-specific training. Of course for elementary school that's different since those teachers need training in many subjects. One reason to teach people how to teach at the lower levels is to make them better teachers - often professors are not the greatest teachers, and often the ones that are have had some teaching experience as TA's etc. But again, there may be some room for reform w/out scrapping the whole of it... Mike – yes but that’s certainly not the only thing they do for four years. There is a lot of area-specific training. Of course for elementary school that’s different since those teachers need training in many subjects.

One reason to teach people how to teach at the lower levels is to make them better teachers – often professors are not the greatest teachers, and often the ones that are have had some teaching experience as TA’s etc.

But again, there may be some room for reform w/out scrapping the whole of it…

]]> By: Mike at The Big Stick http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/05/teachers-unions-performance-pay-and-autonomy/#comment-6777 Mike at The Big Stick Fri, 08 May 2009 11:39:38 +0000 http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=3855#comment-6777 I guess my point is that even if we only require teachers to have a BA, what is preferable? Someone with 4 years of learning various 'teaching techniques' or someone with 4 years studying the field they are actually going to teach? I've read a lot of horr stories from parents whose kid's teachers don't seem to really have a grasp of the subject matter they are teaching. I think we need to get back to emphasizing a mastery of the subject over teaching methods. As I said, we don't require college professors to have a teaching certificate. Why force it at the lower levels? I guess my point is that even if we only require teachers to have a BA, what is preferable? Someone with 4 years of learning various ‘teaching techniques’ or someone with 4 years studying the field they are actually going to teach? I’ve read a lot of horr stories from parents whose kid’s teachers don’t seem to really have a grasp of the subject matter they are teaching. I think we need to get back to emphasizing a mastery of the subject over teaching methods. As I said, we don’t require college professors to have a teaching certificate. Why force it at the lower levels?

]]> By: Trumwill http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/05/teachers-unions-performance-pay-and-autonomy/#comment-6765 Trumwill Fri, 08 May 2009 03:26:55 +0000 http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=3855#comment-6765 I think the bachelors/masters is one thing that they do get right (except, apparently, some districts in Kentucky). It is preferred that teachers do have a master's. I don't think that the master's needs to be in education, necessarily, but higher degrees should be preferred and rewarded. They shouldn't be a requirement, though, if they bring something else to the table (a willingness to teach a subject where there is a shortage, work experience, a natural gift, etc). I think the bachelors/masters is one thing that they do get right (except, apparently, some districts in Kentucky). It is preferred that teachers do have a master’s. I don’t think that the master’s needs to be in education, necessarily, but higher degrees should be preferred and rewarded. They shouldn’t be a requirement, though, if they bring something else to the table (a willingness to teach a subject where there is a shortage, work experience, a natural gift, etc).

]]> By: Mike http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/05/teachers-unions-performance-pay-and-autonomy/#comment-6762 Mike Fri, 08 May 2009 02:38:39 +0000 http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=3855#comment-6762 It's not a state requirement, it's a district requirement. Here in KY you can teach in some districts with a BA. The larger cities like Louisville and Lexington require an MA. It’s not a state requirement, it’s a district requirement. Here in KY you can teach in some districts with a BA. The larger cities like Louisville and Lexington require an MA.

]]> By: E.D. Kain http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/05/teachers-unions-performance-pay-and-autonomy/#comment-6721 E.D. Kain Thu, 07 May 2009 19:38:50 +0000 http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=3855#comment-6721 I'm not really sure of any state that requires any more than a Bachelors with a certificate to teach. Maybe if you already have a 4 year degree you'll need to go on to do your MA or get a second Bachelors, but I have looked all around the country and can't find any where the base educational requirements are any more than a 4 year degree. I’m not really sure of any state that requires any more than a Bachelors with a certificate to teach. Maybe if you already have a 4 year degree you’ll need to go on to do your MA or get a second Bachelors, but I have looked all around the country and can’t find any where the base educational requirements are any more than a 4 year degree.

]]> By: Mark Thompson http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/05/teachers-unions-performance-pay-and-autonomy/#comment-6718 Mark Thompson Thu, 07 May 2009 19:33:55 +0000 http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=3855#comment-6718 One additional point to Mike's - it's not just two years of grad school that's a problem, it's that it's two years of grad school on top of four years of undergrad. That's a total of six years of schooling one must undergo in those states to become a teacher - even going to state schools, that's a pretty hefty investment to undertake. One additional point to Mike’s – it’s not just two years of grad school that’s a problem, it’s that it’s two years of grad school on top of four years of undergrad. That’s a total of six years of schooling one must undergo in those states to become a teacher – even going to state schools, that’s a pretty hefty investment to undertake.

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