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	<title>Comments on: Teaching Moments</title>
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		<title>By: How (Not) to Fix Our Schools &#171; Upturned Earth</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/05/teaching-moments/#comment-6647</link>
		<dc:creator>How (Not) to Fix Our Schools &#171; Upturned Earth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 May 2009 21:39:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=3847#comment-6647</guid>
		<description>[...] schools our failing and the teachers’ unions are one of the biggest forces standing in the way of commonsensical and much-needed reforms by increasing what we pay our teachers, and … leaving the unions alone. Or in other words, we [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] schools our failing and the teachers’ unions are one of the biggest forces standing in the way of commonsensical and much-needed reforms by increasing what we pay our teachers, and … leaving the unions alone. Or in other words, we [...]</p>
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		<title>By: I Will Not Quote Donald Trump, No Matter How Appropriate &#171; Around The Sphere</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/05/teaching-moments/#comment-6608</link>
		<dc:creator>I Will Not Quote Donald Trump, No Matter How Appropriate &#171; Around The Sphere</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 May 2009 19:38:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=3847#comment-6608</guid>
		<description>[...] comments, Freddie from the Gentleman argued the pro-union case. Now, at the Gentlemen a post from Will about Michelle Rhee and the DC system changing the incentive structure for teachers. Conor also [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] comments, Freddie from the Gentleman argued the pro-union case. Now, at the Gentlemen a post from Will about Michelle Rhee and the DC system changing the incentive structure for teachers. Conor also [...]</p>
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		<title>By: E.D. Kain</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/05/teaching-moments/#comment-6590</link>
		<dc:creator>E.D. Kain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 May 2009 18:24:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=3847#comment-6590</guid>
		<description>Beat you to it, Mark.  I see your follow-up and raise you...er...a follow-up!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Beat you to it, Mark.  I see your follow-up and raise you&#8230;er&#8230;a follow-up!</p>
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		<title>By: Teachers Unions, Performance Pay, and Autonomy &#124; The League of Ordinary Gentlemen</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/05/teaching-moments/#comment-6589</link>
		<dc:creator>Teachers Unions, Performance Pay, and Autonomy &#124; The League of Ordinary Gentlemen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 May 2009 18:24:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=3847#comment-6589</guid>
		<description>[...] sparked off a pretty decent debate in the comments over at The American Scene, and led to a good follow-up here at the League via Brother Will.   Over at TAS you essentially have Conor et al arguing against teachers unions [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] sparked off a pretty decent debate in the comments over at The American Scene, and led to a good follow-up here at the League via Brother Will.   Over at TAS you essentially have Conor et al arguing against teachers unions [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Thompson</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/05/teaching-moments/#comment-6588</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Thompson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 May 2009 18:22:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=3847#comment-6588</guid>
		<description>E.D. - since this is the issue on which we first encountered each other, why do I have a feeling that I&#039;m going to have to put together a follow-up?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>E.D. &#8211; since this is the issue on which we first encountered each other, why do I have a feeling that I&#8217;m going to have to put together a follow-up?</p>
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		<title>By: greginak</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/05/teaching-moments/#comment-6586</link>
		<dc:creator>greginak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 May 2009 18:04:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=3847#comment-6586</guid>
		<description>I think the problem with incentive pay is that so much of student performance is not under the control of the teacher. Parental involvement is a huge factor in children&#039;s motivation and performance. Also poverty is strongly linked with school performance. So how well can you judge a teachers performance? That being said I am not particularly against performance based pay, except for I don&#039;t see any way it does much to improve education.

I know the free market ideologues believe sprinkling some magic competition dust will improve schools but I have never actually seen anybody show how teachers or their unions are the problem we face with education. Blaming unions and teachers is an ideological complaint from the right wing. I am not saying it may not have some merit but on its own it is inadequate to understand our educational system. Oh and we have a country where a largeish number of people believe in creationism, so how smart do you think adults are in this country. 

If we want to improve education we need to look at a lot more then just teachers pay. How about fully funding and expanding Head Start programs? (These have a long history of success)

Making preschool cheaper and more available?

Having parents get more involved with their children’s schools?

Offer more vocational programs for high school students who aren’t on a college track?

Decrease classroom size especially for grade school kids? ( This has been shown to have a consistent positive impact on children’s performance)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the problem with incentive pay is that so much of student performance is not under the control of the teacher. Parental involvement is a huge factor in children&#8217;s motivation and performance. Also poverty is strongly linked with school performance. So how well can you judge a teachers performance? That being said I am not particularly against performance based pay, except for I don&#8217;t see any way it does much to improve education.</p>
<p>I know the free market ideologues believe sprinkling some magic competition dust will improve schools but I have never actually seen anybody show how teachers or their unions are the problem we face with education. Blaming unions and teachers is an ideological complaint from the right wing. I am not saying it may not have some merit but on its own it is inadequate to understand our educational system. Oh and we have a country where a largeish number of people believe in creationism, so how smart do you think adults are in this country. </p>
<p>If we want to improve education we need to look at a lot more then just teachers pay. How about fully funding and expanding Head Start programs? (These have a long history of success)</p>
<p>Making preschool cheaper and more available?</p>
<p>Having parents get more involved with their children’s schools?</p>
<p>Offer more vocational programs for high school students who aren’t on a college track?</p>
<p>Decrease classroom size especially for grade school kids? ( This has been shown to have a consistent positive impact on children’s performance)</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Thompson</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/05/teaching-moments/#comment-6583</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Thompson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 May 2009 17:19:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=3847#comment-6583</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve got all sorts of problems with over-reliance on standardized testing.  But, I don&#039;t see why teachers should be exempt from the kinds of incentives that just about everyone else has to face in their jobs.  The odd thing about discussion over merit pay is that it&#039;s assumed by both sides that merit pay needs to be tied to raw standardized test scores.  

What is strange about this is that it&#039;s not how merit pay works for most people in the real world.  For most people, our pay is based on our boss&#039; evaluation of our performance, which may or may not incorporate some sort of standard measurement of performance, but is rarely solely based on that universal measurement.  In the case of schools, this would usually mean simply giving principals more autonomy over personnel decisions.  Particularly in smaller districts, it then becomes pretty easy to hold that principal accountable for bad teachers via school board elections (this is obviously not so easy in large districts - but there are ways around this problem).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve got all sorts of problems with over-reliance on standardized testing.  But, I don&#8217;t see why teachers should be exempt from the kinds of incentives that just about everyone else has to face in their jobs.  The odd thing about discussion over merit pay is that it&#8217;s assumed by both sides that merit pay needs to be tied to raw standardized test scores.  </p>
<p>What is strange about this is that it&#8217;s not how merit pay works for most people in the real world.  For most people, our pay is based on our boss&#8217; evaluation of our performance, which may or may not incorporate some sort of standard measurement of performance, but is rarely solely based on that universal measurement.  In the case of schools, this would usually mean simply giving principals more autonomy over personnel decisions.  Particularly in smaller districts, it then becomes pretty easy to hold that principal accountable for bad teachers via school board elections (this is obviously not so easy in large districts &#8211; but there are ways around this problem).</p>
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		<title>By: Badger</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/05/teaching-moments/#comment-6582</link>
		<dc:creator>Badger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 May 2009 17:13:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=3847#comment-6582</guid>
		<description>Perhaps, if you were to outline the essential differences in teaching math regionally I could understand your argument better.  You&#039;ve already conceded that the math itself isn&#039;t essentially different.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps, if you were to outline the essential differences in teaching math regionally I could understand your argument better.  You&#8217;ve already conceded that the math itself isn&#8217;t essentially different.</p>
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		<title>By: E.D. Kain</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/05/teaching-moments/#comment-6581</link>
		<dc:creator>E.D. Kain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 May 2009 17:00:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=3847#comment-6581</guid>
		<description>Jaybird - indeed, so many of the world&#039;s problems are...

Badger - classrooms across the country are in fact extraordinarily different.  Such is the nature of such a massive country.  Does the basic math change?  No.  Does the method to teach it effectively change from one school to the next?  Yes.  From one classroom to the next?  Yes.  From one student to the next?  YES.  So national standards and tests to measure them fall woefully short of the realities facing teachers (and students) in the real world, regardless of the fact that trig in Arizona is the same as it is in New York.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jaybird &#8211; indeed, so many of the world&#8217;s problems are&#8230;</p>
<p>Badger &#8211; classrooms across the country are in fact extraordinarily different.  Such is the nature of such a massive country.  Does the basic math change?  No.  Does the method to teach it effectively change from one school to the next?  Yes.  From one classroom to the next?  Yes.  From one student to the next?  YES.  So national standards and tests to measure them fall woefully short of the realities facing teachers (and students) in the real world, regardless of the fact that trig in Arizona is the same as it is in New York.</p>
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		<title>By: Badger</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/05/teaching-moments/#comment-6580</link>
		<dc:creator>Badger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 May 2009 16:56:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=3847#comment-6580</guid>
		<description>How is a classroom in New York different than a classroom in Los Angeles?  Is it really the case that change the algebra-geometry-trig progression will produce different resulting in NY than LA?  Even where you are likely to see local differences, centralization renders them moot.  A neighborhood of children of engineers will have different needs and aptitudes than a neighborhood of children of performing artists is something I&#039;m sure we will all concede.  This isn&#039;t the norm however and to speak of the average school is to make an intelligent statement of better than 80% of them.

As far as pay goes, going back 2 generations we find that students were typically not educated by someone with a Masters degree.  Many times there wasn&#039;t a Bachelor&#039;s degree.  The idea that the common man can&#039;t teach 4th grade math is a proposition continually given but never proved.  If anything we are probably eliminating better teachers from the qualified pool because of ridiculous education requirements.  The biggest problem with performance based pay is that we pretend we can speak with a level of precision that we simply can&#039;t.  A class increasing their Math SAT by 10 points could be a lot of factors, but one of the least likely factors is the comparative skill of the teacher.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How is a classroom in New York different than a classroom in Los Angeles?  Is it really the case that change the algebra-geometry-trig progression will produce different resulting in NY than LA?  Even where you are likely to see local differences, centralization renders them moot.  A neighborhood of children of engineers will have different needs and aptitudes than a neighborhood of children of performing artists is something I&#8217;m sure we will all concede.  This isn&#8217;t the norm however and to speak of the average school is to make an intelligent statement of better than 80% of them.</p>
<p>As far as pay goes, going back 2 generations we find that students were typically not educated by someone with a Masters degree.  Many times there wasn&#8217;t a Bachelor&#8217;s degree.  The idea that the common man can&#8217;t teach 4th grade math is a proposition continually given but never proved.  If anything we are probably eliminating better teachers from the qualified pool because of ridiculous education requirements.  The biggest problem with performance based pay is that we pretend we can speak with a level of precision that we simply can&#8217;t.  A class increasing their Math SAT by 10 points could be a lot of factors, but one of the least likely factors is the comparative skill of the teacher.</p>
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