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	<title>Comments on: Why Care about Affirmative Action?</title>
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		<title>By: IRod</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/06/why-care-about-affirmative-action/#comment-12086</link>
		<dc:creator>IRod</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 01:23:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=5574#comment-12086</guid>
		<description>it&#039;s easier for a white fellow who attends a public high school in a safe,good environment to get a better education for the simple fact that he or she doesn&#039;t have to worry about any safety issues along the way.We cannot compare a Brooklyn,NY  h.s to one in the midwest.When you attend a public school in some inner city schools,you worry more about surviving than learning.I think any students who graduates from any of these high schools deserve to matriculate in a good university even if  he/she scores less  in his/her SAT test.Let&#039;s be fair.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>it&#8217;s easier for a white fellow who attends a public high school in a safe,good environment to get a better education for the simple fact that he or she doesn&#8217;t have to worry about any safety issues along the way.We cannot compare a Brooklyn,NY  h.s to one in the midwest.When you attend a public school in some inner city schools,you worry more about surviving than learning.I think any students who graduates from any of these high schools deserve to matriculate in a good university even if  he/she scores less  in his/her SAT test.Let&#8217;s be fair.</p>
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		<title>By: Affirmative Action Thoughts. &#171; PostBourgie</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/06/why-care-about-affirmative-action/#comment-10790</link>
		<dc:creator>Affirmative Action Thoughts. &#171; PostBourgie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 16:13:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] The League’s Mark Thompson has a  great post up on  affirmative action that has had me thinking about the topic all evening.  I’m pretty familiar with most of the common objections to affirmative action, and I’m particularly good at convincing folks that affirmative action isn’t a form of “reverse racism” or bigotry against white people.  Though, to be fair, I’m good at it (and presumably, so is Mark) because the facts are on my side: institutionalized discrimination has had a tremendously negative (and quantifiable) impact on educational attainment with minority communities.  Affirmative action programs (in college admissions at least) do target academically successful minorities who lack the wealth or support networks of their white peers.  And affirmative action programs have successfully integrated minorities and women into the elite spheres of American life.  Indeed, as sociologist Orlando Patterson repeatedly notes in his book The Ordeal of Integration, affirmative action easily ranks as one of this country’s most successful policy undertakings. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The League’s Mark Thompson has a  great post up on  affirmative action that has had me thinking about the topic all evening.  I’m pretty familiar with most of the common objections to affirmative action, and I’m particularly good at convincing folks that affirmative action isn’t a form of “reverse racism” or bigotry against white people.  Though, to be fair, I’m good at it (and presumably, so is Mark) because the facts are on my side: institutionalized discrimination has had a tremendously negative (and quantifiable) impact on educational attainment with minority communities.  Affirmative action programs (in college admissions at least) do target academically successful minorities who lack the wealth or support networks of their white peers.  And affirmative action programs have successfully integrated minorities and women into the elite spheres of American life.  Indeed, as sociologist Orlando Patterson repeatedly notes in his book The Ordeal of Integration, affirmative action easily ranks as one of this country’s most successful policy undertakings. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tyler</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/06/why-care-about-affirmative-action/#comment-10637</link>
		<dc:creator>Tyler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 15:25:49 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Why is it class or race instead of class &lt;i&gt;and&lt;i&gt; race?

That always fascinates me.  Sure - poor blacks and whites are getting screwed, but given the way race operates if we had solely class-based affirmative action, its likely that minorities would still be underrepresented because you can always fill a job or a college with poor whites faster (because there are more of them).  The class/race debate is all about pitting poor whites against blacks.  Why not help both?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why is it class or race instead of class <i>and</i><i> race?</p>
<p>That always fascinates me.  Sure &#8211; poor blacks and whites are getting screwed, but given the way race operates if we had solely class-based affirmative action, its likely that minorities would still be underrepresented because you can always fill a job or a college with poor whites faster (because there are more of them).  The class/race debate is all about pitting poor whites against blacks.  Why not help both?</i></p>
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		<title>By: Affirmative action thoughts &#171; The United States of Jamerica</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/06/why-care-about-affirmative-action/#comment-10623</link>
		<dc:creator>Affirmative action thoughts &#171; The United States of Jamerica</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 13:01:48 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] action&#160;thoughts 2009 June 22   tags: affirmative action, thinking out loud by Jamelle   The League&#8217;s Mark Thompson has a  great post up on  affirmative action that has had me thinking about the topic all [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] action&nbsp;thoughts 2009 June 22   tags: affirmative action, thinking out loud by Jamelle   The League&#8217;s Mark Thompson has a  great post up on  affirmative action that has had me thinking about the topic all [...]</p>
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		<title>By: CasdraBlog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; links for 2009-06-21</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/06/why-care-about-affirmative-action/#comment-10590</link>
		<dc:creator>CasdraBlog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; links for 2009-06-21</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jun 2009 11:00:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=5574#comment-10590</guid>
		<description>[...] Why Care about Affirmative Action? &#124; The League of Ordinary Gentlemen (tags: politics) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Why Care about Affirmative Action? | The League of Ordinary Gentlemen (tags: politics) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Trumwill</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/06/why-care-about-affirmative-action/#comment-10554</link>
		<dc:creator>Trumwill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jun 2009 03:42:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=5574#comment-10554</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m personally rather conflicted on affirmative action. That being said, there is a pretty big hole here:

&lt;i&gt;(a)blacks and Latinos are inherently inferior, or (b) we still have not overcome the legacy of racial discrimination,&lt;/i&gt;

(c) There are cultural reasons why some groups are more represented than others. Blacks are not &quot;inherently inferior&quot; so much as their culture is not as geared towards college admissions as are Asian and white cultures. Take two families, one of which insists that their high school career be geared as much as possible to the best college as possible, and the other where the importance of college is not stressed nearly so much... you&#039;re going to get different results regardless of &quot;inherent&quot; traits.

There are good pro-AA arguments to counter this, namely that killing affirmative action reinforces the notion that minorities are not college material. Or that in order to reverse the mentalities in communities where college preparation is not as widespread you have to strongly reward those within said communities that do more college prep.

But to suggest that affirmative action supporters are either racists or must admit that racism is such a big force in American society that AA are required is, in my view, a QED that prematurely ends discussion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m personally rather conflicted on affirmative action. That being said, there is a pretty big hole here:</p>
<p><i>(a)blacks and Latinos are inherently inferior, or (b) we still have not overcome the legacy of racial discrimination,</i></p>
<p>(c) There are cultural reasons why some groups are more represented than others. Blacks are not &#8220;inherently inferior&#8221; so much as their culture is not as geared towards college admissions as are Asian and white cultures. Take two families, one of which insists that their high school career be geared as much as possible to the best college as possible, and the other where the importance of college is not stressed nearly so much&#8230; you&#8217;re going to get different results regardless of &#8220;inherent&#8221; traits.</p>
<p>There are good pro-AA arguments to counter this, namely that killing affirmative action reinforces the notion that minorities are not college material. Or that in order to reverse the mentalities in communities where college preparation is not as widespread you have to strongly reward those within said communities that do more college prep.</p>
<p>But to suggest that affirmative action supporters are either racists or must admit that racism is such a big force in American society that AA are required is, in my view, a QED that prematurely ends discussion.</p>
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		<title>By: ESC</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/06/why-care-about-affirmative-action/#comment-10553</link>
		<dc:creator>ESC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jun 2009 03:30:33 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>While the general principles and reasoning behind your argument seem sound enough to me, this statement: &quot;When an affirmative action program is set up as a means of remedying some other form of discrimination, then the presumption is that the only reason the average minority applicant would be less qualfied than a white applicant would be that other form of discrimination, whether past or present.  Thus, if you factor that past discrimination into the equation, the two applicants would be equally qualified.&quot; worries me (sorry about the weird formatting). You seem to be assuming that universities can perfectly gauge the effects of the past discrimination. This simply isn&#039;t true. You can&#039;t say, &quot;Oh, well slavery and segregation made the SAT scores of African-Americans go down 100 points, so we&#039;ll just give them a 100 point bump in their consideration.&quot; The factors that may have led to a minority student&#039;s inferior resume are numerous. Discrimination absolutely had an effect; however, the effect is unquantifiable. Thus, affirmative action will fail to truly choose a student based off (hypothetical or otherwise) merit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While the general principles and reasoning behind your argument seem sound enough to me, this statement: &#8220;When an affirmative action program is set up as a means of remedying some other form of discrimination, then the presumption is that the only reason the average minority applicant would be less qualfied than a white applicant would be that other form of discrimination, whether past or present.  Thus, if you factor that past discrimination into the equation, the two applicants would be equally qualified.&#8221; worries me (sorry about the weird formatting). You seem to be assuming that universities can perfectly gauge the effects of the past discrimination. This simply isn&#8217;t true. You can&#8217;t say, &#8220;Oh, well slavery and segregation made the SAT scores of African-Americans go down 100 points, so we&#8217;ll just give them a 100 point bump in their consideration.&#8221; The factors that may have led to a minority student&#8217;s inferior resume are numerous. Discrimination absolutely had an effect; however, the effect is unquantifiable. Thus, affirmative action will fail to truly choose a student based off (hypothetical or otherwise) merit.</p>
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		<title>By: Kyle</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/06/why-care-about-affirmative-action/#comment-10547</link>
		<dc:creator>Kyle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jun 2009 02:52:31 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I think you gamed out the race/economic AA programs pretty well above, Mark.

Interestingly enough, the subject of higher education is where I&#039;m the most sympathetic to the plight of the middle class. On any number of subjects, I think the poor deserve vastly more support than they&#039;re getting/than the middle class. However, I think there&#039;s a middle class squeeze when it comes to education. It&#039;s incredibly difficult to afford or attend a good school but without the advantages of the wealthy or the dedicated assistance to the poor, the middle class have few supports, little sympathy, and high bills.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you gamed out the race/economic AA programs pretty well above, Mark.</p>
<p>Interestingly enough, the subject of higher education is where I&#8217;m the most sympathetic to the plight of the middle class. On any number of subjects, I think the poor deserve vastly more support than they&#8217;re getting/than the middle class. However, I think there&#8217;s a middle class squeeze when it comes to education. It&#8217;s incredibly difficult to afford or attend a good school but without the advantages of the wealthy or the dedicated assistance to the poor, the middle class have few supports, little sympathy, and high bills.</p>
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		<title>By: Kyle</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/06/why-care-about-affirmative-action/#comment-10546</link>
		<dc:creator>Kyle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jun 2009 02:29:32 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Yes, there is. In fact, lately - at least of the big three - there&#039;s been a big push to increase applications from low income/minority areas and to use students as ambassadors in that outreach.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, there is. In fact, lately &#8211; at least of the big three &#8211; there&#8217;s been a big push to increase applications from low income/minority areas and to use students as ambassadors in that outreach.</p>
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		<title>By: Kyle</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/06/why-care-about-affirmative-action/#comment-10545</link>
		<dc:creator>Kyle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jun 2009 02:28:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=5574#comment-10545</guid>
		<description>Great post Mark.

A few points.

First, one problem that very few people talk about with race based educational statistics is that we paint a very inaccurate picture of &quot;Asians&quot; with an oversized model minority brush. 

The success of Americans of Chinese, Japanese and Korean descent tends to mask the comparatively low performance of pacific islanders, Filipinos, and South Asians generally.

Second, I think there&#039;s something to be said for socio-economic diversity, but just as there are issues of racial adjustment and sensitivity on campus, I think there&#039;s an enormous learning curve for universities in supporting poor students. Getting them/us in the door is great but succeeding in university is another issue with another solution. 

Increasing the number of students matriculating to college from underrepresented groups is good but it&#039;s only part of the puzzle. There&#039;s a big push to get kids into college. Then a big drop off in supporting them afterwards and not all universities are as supportive as 35K/year should afford

Third, affirmative action of any stripe only works as long as there is an eligible pool. Currently, only 57 and 53 percent of Hispanics and Blacks graduate high school in four years.

Fourth.
&lt;blockquote&gt; In that situation, affirmative action is absolutely necessary to restore a meritocracy – it doesn’t stand in the way of meritocracy.  In other words, it’s an attempt to approximate what would happen in a discrimination-free environment. &lt;/blockquote&gt; 

This is golden. 

My experience at Yale was that the advantages of an upper middle class/wealthy lifestyle were expectations not exceptions. It was assumed your parents were professionals. It was assumed you had access to the informal networks of support and general knowledge base that so exemplify the privileged (largely white) classes in America. Not that there was a stigma for not having these things but they were seen as normal, not privilege.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post Mark.</p>
<p>A few points.</p>
<p>First, one problem that very few people talk about with race based educational statistics is that we paint a very inaccurate picture of &#8220;Asians&#8221; with an oversized model minority brush. </p>
<p>The success of Americans of Chinese, Japanese and Korean descent tends to mask the comparatively low performance of pacific islanders, Filipinos, and South Asians generally.</p>
<p>Second, I think there&#8217;s something to be said for socio-economic diversity, but just as there are issues of racial adjustment and sensitivity on campus, I think there&#8217;s an enormous learning curve for universities in supporting poor students. Getting them/us in the door is great but succeeding in university is another issue with another solution. </p>
<p>Increasing the number of students matriculating to college from underrepresented groups is good but it&#8217;s only part of the puzzle. There&#8217;s a big push to get kids into college. Then a big drop off in supporting them afterwards and not all universities are as supportive as 35K/year should afford</p>
<p>Third, affirmative action of any stripe only works as long as there is an eligible pool. Currently, only 57 and 53 percent of Hispanics and Blacks graduate high school in four years.</p>
<p>Fourth.</p>
<blockquote><p> In that situation, affirmative action is absolutely necessary to restore a meritocracy – it doesn’t stand in the way of meritocracy.  In other words, it’s an attempt to approximate what would happen in a discrimination-free environment. </p></blockquote>
<p>This is golden. </p>
<p>My experience at Yale was that the advantages of an upper middle class/wealthy lifestyle were expectations not exceptions. It was assumed your parents were professionals. It was assumed you had access to the informal networks of support and general knowledge base that so exemplify the privileged (largely white) classes in America. Not that there was a stigma for not having these things but they were seen as normal, not privilege.</p>
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