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	<title>Comments on: public plans, vouchers, and choice</title>
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		<title>By: mike farmer</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/07/public-plans-vouchers-and-choice/#comment-14408</link>
		<dc:creator>mike farmer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 06:20:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=6601#comment-14408</guid>
		<description>Well, if you could prove that the great majority of documentary films are subjective, then you might have a point, otherwise, your argumentation is specious, and just a little odd in its persistence. I really think, though, that we&#039;ve exhausted the dissection of this analogy and I promise to never use Moore again in an analogy. As a matter of fact, I&#039;m exhausted period and think I will spend my energy on my blog, rather than argue in circles here.  There&#039;s a strange resistance to objectivity from the left and right that I find very uninteresting. Later.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, if you could prove that the great majority of documentary films are subjective, then you might have a point, otherwise, your argumentation is specious, and just a little odd in its persistence. I really think, though, that we&#8217;ve exhausted the dissection of this analogy and I promise to never use Moore again in an analogy. As a matter of fact, I&#8217;m exhausted period and think I will spend my energy on my blog, rather than argue in circles here.  There&#8217;s a strange resistance to objectivity from the left and right that I find very uninteresting. Later.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Drew</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/07/public-plans-vouchers-and-choice/#comment-14407</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Drew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 04:24:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=6601#comment-14407</guid>
		<description>I guess my point was that, for all the criticism Moore received from, well, wherever, I don&#039;t think even his defenders proclaimed him to be a paragon of objectivity and neutrality.  They merely said that his perspective offered a way of looking at the war for example that was worth considering.  At least that&#039;s all I ever said or heard said to my recollection.  Which to my mind makes it a somewhat weak analogy.  You could have said that it was like saying George W. Bush was the greatest president in U.S. history.  Assuming I agreed with you about Enron, I&#039;d have to agree that the analogy works.  But if no one is saying the thing you&#039;re using for the analogy, then there&#039;s not much leverage in the analogy.  &quot;Saying Enron is a good example of the free market is like saying the moon is a good example of a nice Roquefort&quot; would be another similar thing to say.

So then I chimed in to say, it&#039;s really not remarkable, nor does it mean there is no value to the opinion expressed in the film, that Michael Moore produces films that many would agree are not objective.  In addition to few people claiming the contrary, it&#039;s also really not that much of a knock against him, nor does it distinguish him in any way from others in the same field.  

So yes, the analogy works formally.  But there&#039;s not much force behind it.  To my mind, my initial response carried that meaning clearly.  When we are making points, it is generally not assumed we are being objective, but rather that we are expressing a subjective opinion.  I think Michael Moore would gladly cop to having an opinion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess my point was that, for all the criticism Moore received from, well, wherever, I don&#8217;t think even his defenders proclaimed him to be a paragon of objectivity and neutrality.  They merely said that his perspective offered a way of looking at the war for example that was worth considering.  At least that&#8217;s all I ever said or heard said to my recollection.  Which to my mind makes it a somewhat weak analogy.  You could have said that it was like saying George W. Bush was the greatest president in U.S. history.  Assuming I agreed with you about Enron, I&#8217;d have to agree that the analogy works.  But if no one is saying the thing you&#8217;re using for the analogy, then there&#8217;s not much leverage in the analogy.  &#8220;Saying Enron is a good example of the free market is like saying the moon is a good example of a nice Roquefort&#8221; would be another similar thing to say.</p>
<p>So then I chimed in to say, it&#8217;s really not remarkable, nor does it mean there is no value to the opinion expressed in the film, that Michael Moore produces films that many would agree are not objective.  In addition to few people claiming the contrary, it&#8217;s also really not that much of a knock against him, nor does it distinguish him in any way from others in the same field.  </p>
<p>So yes, the analogy works formally.  But there&#8217;s not much force behind it.  To my mind, my initial response carried that meaning clearly.  When we are making points, it is generally not assumed we are being objective, but rather that we are expressing a subjective opinion.  I think Michael Moore would gladly cop to having an opinion.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Drew</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/07/public-plans-vouchers-and-choice/#comment-14406</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Drew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 04:05:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=6601#comment-14406</guid>
		<description>No, you&#039;re right.  I was going to say that ultimately your analogy holds up in a way...Moore, like most documentaries and political commentary, is not objective.  I forgot to add that in.  I&#039;m just pointing out that a possible implication of your example is that we might expect non-Moore material to be &#039;objective.&#039;  I&#039;m just pointing out that&#039;s not the case.  Hence the fixation on Moore being nonobjective (which I&#039;m not saying you&#039;re exhibiting, merely that large numbers of people once did) is just singling out a particular example of a commonplace phenomenon, in my view because his particular viewpoint was unwelcome.  In other words, back in &lt;i&gt;Farenheit&lt;/i&gt; days, a meme got started that Michael Moore was opinionated in some way that was beyond the pale when everything else in our political discourse in those days was by comparison in bounds.  It never made any sense whatsoever.  I have no idea how much you ever subscribed to that notion yourslef -- you may just be leaning on that public view of Moore to make your analogy and nothing more.  I&#039;m just revisiting the underpinning logic of the criticism of Moore you&#039;re invoking, just because I find it an interesting point to examine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, you&#8217;re right.  I was going to say that ultimately your analogy holds up in a way&#8230;Moore, like most documentaries and political commentary, is not objective.  I forgot to add that in.  I&#8217;m just pointing out that a possible implication of your example is that we might expect non-Moore material to be &#8216;objective.&#8217;  I&#8217;m just pointing out that&#8217;s not the case.  Hence the fixation on Moore being nonobjective (which I&#8217;m not saying you&#8217;re exhibiting, merely that large numbers of people once did) is just singling out a particular example of a commonplace phenomenon, in my view because his particular viewpoint was unwelcome.  In other words, back in <i>Farenheit</i> days, a meme got started that Michael Moore was opinionated in some way that was beyond the pale when everything else in our political discourse in those days was by comparison in bounds.  It never made any sense whatsoever.  I have no idea how much you ever subscribed to that notion yourslef &#8212; you may just be leaning on that public view of Moore to make your analogy and nothing more.  I&#8217;m just revisiting the underpinning logic of the criticism of Moore you&#8217;re invoking, just because I find it an interesting point to examine.</p>
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		<title>By: mike farmer</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/07/public-plans-vouchers-and-choice/#comment-14387</link>
		<dc:creator>mike farmer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jul 2009 21:53:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=6601#comment-14387</guid>
		<description>Micahel, do you understand the point of my analogy? To show that using Enron as an example of free enterprise is as ridiculous as using Michael Moore&#039;s work as an example of objective documentary -- you actually have made the point of my analogy. Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Micahel, do you understand the point of my analogy? To show that using Enron as an example of free enterprise is as ridiculous as using Michael Moore&#8217;s work as an example of objective documentary &#8212; you actually have made the point of my analogy. Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Drew</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/07/public-plans-vouchers-and-choice/#comment-14383</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Drew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jul 2009 21:43:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=6601#comment-14383</guid>
		<description>No, my friend.  Moore&#039;s work, like most documentaries that intersect with politics, is not and is not intended to be objective.  I hardly see how any work of art or commentary on life with a particular viewpoint can be seen as objective.  I don&#039;t think NBC Nightly News or the New York Times are objective, for all their protestations to the contrary.  I just think that Moore hit a nerve with certain people back in 2004, and since then he gets singled out for something that is common to almost all political commentary -- subjectivity, ie prizing one&#039;s own political convictions or preferences over other ways of seeing the world.  That singling out is what I am saying is a political tic.  I&#039;m certainly not saying Michael Moore is objective.  I&#039;m saying the political is a realm where objectivity is merely a pose.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, my friend.  Moore&#8217;s work, like most documentaries that intersect with politics, is not and is not intended to be objective.  I hardly see how any work of art or commentary on life with a particular viewpoint can be seen as objective.  I don&#8217;t think NBC Nightly News or the New York Times are objective, for all their protestations to the contrary.  I just think that Moore hit a nerve with certain people back in 2004, and since then he gets singled out for something that is common to almost all political commentary &#8212; subjectivity, ie prizing one&#8217;s own political convictions or preferences over other ways of seeing the world.  That singling out is what I am saying is a political tic.  I&#8217;m certainly not saying Michael Moore is objective.  I&#8217;m saying the political is a realm where objectivity is merely a pose.</p>
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		<title>By: mike farmer</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/07/public-plans-vouchers-and-choice/#comment-14305</link>
		<dc:creator>mike farmer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jul 2009 11:38:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=6601#comment-14305</guid>
		<description>Oh, so I have a political tic -- I see. So, I guess we can honestly say that Moore&#039;s work is the epitome of objective documentaries. My tic prevented me from seeing this -- thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, so I have a political tic &#8212; I see. So, I guess we can honestly say that Moore&#8217;s work is the epitome of objective documentaries. My tic prevented me from seeing this &#8212; thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Drew</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/07/public-plans-vouchers-and-choice/#comment-14300</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Drew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jul 2009 07:00:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=6601#comment-14300</guid>
		<description>This whole thing is about figuring out which values are going to be paramount.  If there were universally accepted values -- and consensus about their relative importance -- then the solutions would be fairly apparent, even if undesirable.  Politics happen because people have deep, prior differences in how to solve problems, resulting in a fight whose outcome some people are less happy with than others.  All of that is because of subjective but real differences in how people approached the problem to begin with, rooted in their values.  This all seems basic and obvious to me, but perhaps to you the values to be prized most highly are so obvious as to seem objective.

In any case, the analogy was about documentaries.  It seems to me that documentaries of a political nature almost always have some ideological point or other to make -- we take that for granted.  They rarely pretend to be &#039;objective&#039; like the NBC Nightly News.  So calling out Moore&#039;s films has always seemed to me little more than a political tic of people who differ profoundly with the particular angle he takes than as a coherent way to draw real distinctions between his stuff and other political documentaries.  That might not be an objective assessment, however.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This whole thing is about figuring out which values are going to be paramount.  If there were universally accepted values &#8212; and consensus about their relative importance &#8212; then the solutions would be fairly apparent, even if undesirable.  Politics happen because people have deep, prior differences in how to solve problems, resulting in a fight whose outcome some people are less happy with than others.  All of that is because of subjective but real differences in how people approached the problem to begin with, rooted in their values.  This all seems basic and obvious to me, but perhaps to you the values to be prized most highly are so obvious as to seem objective.</p>
<p>In any case, the analogy was about documentaries.  It seems to me that documentaries of a political nature almost always have some ideological point or other to make &#8212; we take that for granted.  They rarely pretend to be &#8216;objective&#8217; like the NBC Nightly News.  So calling out Moore&#8217;s films has always seemed to me little more than a political tic of people who differ profoundly with the particular angle he takes than as a coherent way to draw real distinctions between his stuff and other political documentaries.  That might not be an objective assessment, however.</p>
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		<title>By: mike farmer</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/07/public-plans-vouchers-and-choice/#comment-14293</link>
		<dc:creator>mike farmer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jul 2009 02:28:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=6601#comment-14293</guid>
		<description>Not necessarily, not if you are using the accepted values which make up good healthcare and which can be measured. You could exclude all values which are deemed subjective.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not necessarily, not if you are using the accepted values which make up good healthcare and which can be measured. You could exclude all values which are deemed subjective.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Drew</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/07/public-plans-vouchers-and-choice/#comment-14291</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Drew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jul 2009 00:54:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=6601#comment-14291</guid>
		<description>Arguing that good points outweigh bad points will depend on an least somewhat subjective ordering of values and priorities.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Arguing that good points outweigh bad points will depend on an least somewhat subjective ordering of values and priorities.</p>
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		<title>By: mike farmer</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/07/public-plans-vouchers-and-choice/#comment-14290</link>
		<dc:creator>mike farmer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jul 2009 00:29:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=6601#comment-14290</guid>
		<description>Conversely, you could make a subjective point by saying your gut tells you single-payer is better because it seems more fair and efficient.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Conversely, you could make a subjective point by saying your gut tells you single-payer is better because it seems more fair and efficient.</p>
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