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	<title>Comments on: Correctly Political: Wealth Care, a Historical Note</title>
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		<title>By: jfxgillis</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/08/correctly-political-wealth-care-a-historical-note/#comment-21112</link>
		<dc:creator>jfxgillis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Sep 2009 22:19:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=7865#comment-21112</guid>
		<description>Michael:

Giggle. I&#039;ll make sure and add that advice to the syllabus of the composition classes I teach.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael:</p>
<p>Giggle. I&#8217;ll make sure and add that advice to the syllabus of the composition classes I teach.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Drew</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/08/correctly-political-wealth-care-a-historical-note/#comment-21085</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Drew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Sep 2009 20:22:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=7865#comment-21085</guid>
		<description>I just came over here after asking E.D. specifically about the question of where the interstate restriction is from.  I think what might have happened here is that the lead got buried.  I remember looking at the title and first few paragraphs of the post and not being able to tell what it was about other than some general ruminations on health care.  Then I saw the length and moved on.  Wish I hadn&#039;t, because even at that time I was very interested in the question the post goes on to answer.  But I think that may have been part of the problem.  
--&#039;Say what you&#039;re going to say, say it, then say again what you said!&#039;  Just some unsolicited advice in composition someone once gave me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just came over here after asking E.D. specifically about the question of where the interstate restriction is from.  I think what might have happened here is that the lead got buried.  I remember looking at the title and first few paragraphs of the post and not being able to tell what it was about other than some general ruminations on health care.  Then I saw the length and moved on.  Wish I hadn&#8217;t, because even at that time I was very interested in the question the post goes on to answer.  But I think that may have been part of the problem.<br />
&#8211;&#8217;Say what you&#8217;re going to say, say it, then say again what you said!&#8217;  Just some unsolicited advice in composition someone once gave me.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/08/correctly-political-wealth-care-a-historical-note/#comment-19139</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 05:57:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=7865#comment-19139</guid>
		<description>Ok, we can get into the line by line, fine.

 &quot;The first study known to me was by Auster, Leveson, &amp; Sarachek, Journal of Human Resources, in 1969 . It found that variations across the 50 U.S. states of 1960 age-sex-adjusted death rates were significantly predicted by variations in income, education, fractions of white collar and female workers, and the existence of a local medical school, but not by variations in medical spending, urbanization, and alcohol and cigarette consumption.&quot;

How is the existence of a local medical school not an indication of medical spending?  Can medical schools be built without spending?  How may I acquire one of these free medical schools?  Also, to point out, death rates is a /third/ (there are more) method by which Hanson is measuring health outcomes (it is distinct from longevity, as well as general health).

And I can&#039;t answer your question about &#039;what if it&#039;s true&#039;, because  the quote you give has the highest error rate I&#039;ve ever seen in a straight-faced piece of medical research, and is also totally incoherent, since poor people who can pay for full-priced care are not poor, or are being given care, which makes it functionally free care -- basically, the survey seems to prove that full-price care is better than free care, which I&#039;m sure is the case.  Additionally, it is completely irrational to limit the study to those in the top 80% of initial health -- it basically ensures that the positive effects of health care will disappear. 

It&#039;s an interesting, counterintuitive argument, and I&#039;ve got a lot of sympathy for thinking outside the box, but it&#039;s wrong.  Factually wrong in its original form, and morally wrong as a justification for denying health care to those in need.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok, we can get into the line by line, fine.</p>
<p> &#8220;The first study known to me was by Auster, Leveson, &amp; Sarachek, Journal of Human Resources, in 1969 . It found that variations across the 50 U.S. states of 1960 age-sex-adjusted death rates were significantly predicted by variations in income, education, fractions of white collar and female workers, and the existence of a local medical school, but not by variations in medical spending, urbanization, and alcohol and cigarette consumption.&#8221;</p>
<p>How is the existence of a local medical school not an indication of medical spending?  Can medical schools be built without spending?  How may I acquire one of these free medical schools?  Also, to point out, death rates is a /third/ (there are more) method by which Hanson is measuring health outcomes (it is distinct from longevity, as well as general health).</p>
<p>And I can&#8217;t answer your question about &#8216;what if it&#8217;s true&#8217;, because  the quote you give has the highest error rate I&#8217;ve ever seen in a straight-faced piece of medical research, and is also totally incoherent, since poor people who can pay for full-priced care are not poor, or are being given care, which makes it functionally free care &#8212; basically, the survey seems to prove that full-price care is better than free care, which I&#8217;m sure is the case.  Additionally, it is completely irrational to limit the study to those in the top 80% of initial health &#8212; it basically ensures that the positive effects of health care will disappear. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s an interesting, counterintuitive argument, and I&#8217;ve got a lot of sympathy for thinking outside the box, but it&#8217;s wrong.  Factually wrong in its original form, and morally wrong as a justification for denying health care to those in need.</p>
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		<title>By: jfxgillis</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/08/correctly-political-wealth-care-a-historical-note/#comment-18941</link>
		<dc:creator>jfxgillis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 19:48:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=7865#comment-18941</guid>
		<description>Henry:

I specifically allowed that point and, you&#039;ll note, didn&#039;t even link to the primary source which, you&#039;ll also note, I tend to do when I think it&#039;s important.

I think the Commonwealth Fund rankings are much more significant, both because it&#039;s more apples-to-apples and because I think their metrics are superior to the WHO&#039;s--in part for reasons like the ones you listed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Henry:</p>
<p>I specifically allowed that point and, you&#8217;ll note, didn&#8217;t even link to the primary source which, you&#8217;ll also note, I tend to do when I think it&#8217;s important.</p>
<p>I think the Commonwealth Fund rankings are much more significant, both because it&#8217;s more apples-to-apples and because I think their metrics are superior to the WHO&#8217;s&#8211;in part for reasons like the ones you listed.</p>
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		<title>By: Glen Raphael</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/08/correctly-political-wealth-care-a-historical-note/#comment-18928</link>
		<dc:creator>Glen Raphael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 18:07:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=7865#comment-18928</guid>
		<description>&quot;&lt;i&gt;Which is basically for him to say, well, it’s going to look like I’m wrong because the studies are going to look bad because I’m so right.&lt;/i&gt;&quot;

Nonsense. He&#039;s just giving one possible reason (of several) why the big aggregate studies - which all &lt;b&gt;do support his view&lt;/b&gt; and do make it look like he&#039;s right - can be reconciled with smaller individual studies that might initially seem to suggest otherwise. 

&quot;&lt;i&gt;I’m very much not in favor of the rich saying that the poor, who can’t afford doctors and don’t have the opportunity to get care, are probably better off without it.
&lt;/i&gt;&quot;

But what if it&#039;s &lt;b&gt;true&lt;/b&gt;? The relevant quote from the Hanson essay regarding the Rand study:  &quot;At a 7% significance level they found that poor people in the top 80% of initial health ended up with a 3% lower general health index under free medicine than under full-priced medicine.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;<i>Which is basically for him to say, well, it’s going to look like I’m wrong because the studies are going to look bad because I’m so right.</i>&#8221;</p>
<p>Nonsense. He&#8217;s just giving one possible reason (of several) why the big aggregate studies &#8211; which all <b>do support his view</b> and do make it look like he&#8217;s right &#8211; can be reconciled with smaller individual studies that might initially seem to suggest otherwise. </p>
<p>&#8220;<i>I’m very much not in favor of the rich saying that the poor, who can’t afford doctors and don’t have the opportunity to get care, are probably better off without it.<br />
</i>&#8221;</p>
<p>But what if it&#8217;s <b>true</b>? The relevant quote from the Hanson essay regarding the Rand study:  &#8220;At a 7% significance level they found that poor people in the top 80% of initial health ended up with a 3% lower general health index under free medicine than under full-priced medicine.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Nick</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/08/correctly-political-wealth-care-a-historical-note/#comment-18926</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 17:22:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=7865#comment-18926</guid>
		<description>Your last line kind of crystallizes the whole point.  It would be tricky, wouldn&#039;t it?  That one last doctor&#039;s visit, the one you consider absolutely necessary, is a doozy.  

And I&#039;m not criticizing the use of a general health index -- I&#039;m criticizing use of a general health index &lt;i&gt;sometimes&lt;/i&gt;, and longevity (as in the part you quote above) &lt;i&gt;sometimes&lt;/i&gt;, and patient satisfaction sometimes, the reason that your Cato article leads off with: &quot;Note that a muddled appearance of differing studies showing differing effects is to be expected. After all, even if medicine has little effect, random statistical error and biases toward presenting and publishing expected results will ensure that many published studies suggest positive medical benefits.&quot;

Which is basically for him to say, well, it&#039;s going to look like I&#039;m wrong because the studies are going to look bad because I&#039;m so right. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

And all told, I&#039;m very much in favor of people limiting their own health care use -- I&#039;m not at the doctor&#039;s so much myself -- but I&#039;m very much not in favor of the rich saying that the poor, who can&#039;t afford doctors and don&#039;t have the opportunity to get care, are probably better off without it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your last line kind of crystallizes the whole point.  It would be tricky, wouldn&#8217;t it?  That one last doctor&#8217;s visit, the one you consider absolutely necessary, is a doozy.  </p>
<p>And I&#8217;m not criticizing the use of a general health index &#8212; I&#8217;m criticizing use of a general health index <i>sometimes</i>, and longevity (as in the part you quote above) <i>sometimes</i>, and patient satisfaction sometimes, the reason that your Cato article leads off with: &#8220;Note that a muddled appearance of differing studies showing differing effects is to be expected. After all, even if medicine has little effect, random statistical error and biases toward presenting and publishing expected results will ensure that many published studies suggest positive medical benefits.&#8221;</p>
<p>Which is basically for him to say, well, it&#8217;s going to look like I&#8217;m wrong because the studies are going to look bad because I&#8217;m so right. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.</p>
<p>And all told, I&#8217;m very much in favor of people limiting their own health care use &#8212; I&#8217;m not at the doctor&#8217;s so much myself &#8212; but I&#8217;m very much not in favor of the rich saying that the poor, who can&#8217;t afford doctors and don&#8217;t have the opportunity to get care, are probably better off without it.</p>
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		<title>By: Jaybird</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/08/correctly-political-wealth-care-a-historical-note/#comment-18925</link>
		<dc:creator>Jaybird</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 17:13:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=7865#comment-18925</guid>
		<description>Scratch that.
Reverse it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scratch that.<br />
Reverse it.</p>
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		<title>By: Henry GrosJean</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/08/correctly-political-wealth-care-a-historical-note/#comment-18924</link>
		<dc:creator>Henry GrosJean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 16:58:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=7865#comment-18924</guid>
		<description>I question the WHO ranking us 37th. Admittedly we have problems, but they rank us lower for a number of reasons: Health Savings Accounts rank against us as they have more out of pocket costs, outside of the U.S. other countries consistently don&#039;t bring baby&#039;s who have known birth defects to full term (are aborted) but do not count these in their mortality tables, plus pre-mature baby&#039;s are not kept alive like in the U.S.. And, if anyone bothers to look at health care spending in countries with even quasi-socialistic health care spending is controlled by rationing. There is no other way to control it. And, I have no problem with rationing as it&#039;s done already. I just think the reform crowd needs to call it what it is and not mask it in rhetoric.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I question the WHO ranking us 37th. Admittedly we have problems, but they rank us lower for a number of reasons: Health Savings Accounts rank against us as they have more out of pocket costs, outside of the U.S. other countries consistently don&#8217;t bring baby&#8217;s who have known birth defects to full term (are aborted) but do not count these in their mortality tables, plus pre-mature baby&#8217;s are not kept alive like in the U.S.. And, if anyone bothers to look at health care spending in countries with even quasi-socialistic health care spending is controlled by rationing. There is no other way to control it. And, I have no problem with rationing as it&#8217;s done already. I just think the reform crowd needs to call it what it is and not mask it in rhetoric.</p>
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		<title>By: Glen Raphael</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/08/correctly-political-wealth-care-a-historical-note/#comment-18863</link>
		<dc:creator>Glen Raphael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Aug 2009 16:45:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=7865#comment-18863</guid>
		<description>The Rand experiment used a &quot;general health index&quot; because to use longevity as the metric in a controlled experiment you have to run the experiment long enough for a significant number of your subjects to die and follow them until they do. Which takes a long time. It&#039;s not cherrypicking to use the best data you&#039;ve got so far, which each of those studies Hanson mentions individually do. I advocate that we run a bigger, longer Rand Experiment to find out if the earlier findings still hold; I suspect that they do. I do, in fact, follow Hanson&#039;s advice, which basically is: don&#039;t get any health care you wouldn&#039;t be willing to pay for yourself out-of-pocket and treat your doctor like you would treat your auto mechanic - skeptically when it comes to accepting expensive treatment suggestions. (He also advises you avoid the latest new treatments or drugs in favor of older, more established ones wherever possible.)

 In the Rand study, the people who paid for their care from dollar one used less care, missed fewer days from work, and were slightly *healthier* on a variety of metrics than those whose care was more subsidized. They didn&#039;t just look at the sum but also looked at all the individual categories to determine this; the judgment criteria were specified in advance of the experiment and the judgment was double-blinded.

It would actually be tricky for me to cut my healthcare in half since I already see a doctor less than once a year. :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Rand experiment used a &#8220;general health index&#8221; because to use longevity as the metric in a controlled experiment you have to run the experiment long enough for a significant number of your subjects to die and follow them until they do. Which takes a long time. It&#8217;s not cherrypicking to use the best data you&#8217;ve got so far, which each of those studies Hanson mentions individually do. I advocate that we run a bigger, longer Rand Experiment to find out if the earlier findings still hold; I suspect that they do. I do, in fact, follow Hanson&#8217;s advice, which basically is: don&#8217;t get any health care you wouldn&#8217;t be willing to pay for yourself out-of-pocket and treat your doctor like you would treat your auto mechanic &#8211; skeptically when it comes to accepting expensive treatment suggestions. (He also advises you avoid the latest new treatments or drugs in favor of older, more established ones wherever possible.)</p>
<p> In the Rand study, the people who paid for their care from dollar one used less care, missed fewer days from work, and were slightly *healthier* on a variety of metrics than those whose care was more subsidized. They didn&#8217;t just look at the sum but also looked at all the individual categories to determine this; the judgment criteria were specified in advance of the experiment and the judgment was double-blinded.</p>
<p>It would actually be tricky for me to cut my healthcare in half since I already see a doctor less than once a year. :-)</p>
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		<title>By: Nick</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/08/correctly-political-wealth-care-a-historical-note/#comment-18862</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Aug 2009 16:31:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=7865#comment-18862</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m with you, E.D. -- I&#039;m a strong proponent of a public option, but this seems absolutely convincing to me -- especially since it explains why logjams to passing reform are currently centered around Senators with very small constituencies -- their health insurance industry is least competitive (how many insurers can there be in Connecticut?) and has the most to lose from a national system.

I invite you or anyone else to stop by my blog, which is all public option, all the time -- just click on my name.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m with you, E.D. &#8212; I&#8217;m a strong proponent of a public option, but this seems absolutely convincing to me &#8212; especially since it explains why logjams to passing reform are currently centered around Senators with very small constituencies &#8212; their health insurance industry is least competitive (how many insurers can there be in Connecticut?) and has the most to lose from a national system.</p>
<p>I invite you or anyone else to stop by my blog, which is all public option, all the time &#8212; just click on my name.</p>
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