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	<title>Comments on: localism and free trade</title>
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		<title>By: the caricature of lament &#124; The League of Ordinary Gentlemen</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/08/localism-and-free-trade/#comment-17022</link>
		<dc:creator>the caricature of lament &#124; The League of Ordinary Gentlemen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Aug 2009 17:05:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=7338#comment-17022</guid>
		<description>[...] good.  I got it from this really good post by JL Wall over at Upturned Earth, responding to both myself and Nathan about the pitfalls of localism, free trade, and so forth.  More on this [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] good.  I got it from this really good post by JL Wall over at Upturned Earth, responding to both myself and Nathan about the pitfalls of localism, free trade, and so forth.  More on this [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Nathan P. Origer</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/08/localism-and-free-trade/#comment-16928</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathan P. Origer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Aug 2009 23:52:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=7338#comment-16928</guid>
		<description>Returning to my original screed, I&#039;d suggest that the Distributist idea of instituting a differential tax — one applied after any (retail) firm exceeds a certain number of stores, which increases more steeply with each expansion beyond a certain number of locations — is a good one. Yes, it&#039;s a tax that &quot;discourages growth&quot;, but it&#039;s one that, rather than burdening every entrepreneur who takes the risk, gives the established businessman a choice: stay (relatively) small and local or pay taxes to expand. Imperfect? Sure. But better than pro-big-business policy and more expansive taxation? I think so.

Also, I think the Georgist land-value tax offers a reasonable partial solution: No longer does it make sense for speculators to sit on property, waiting for values to increase; homeowners, we can hope, begin again to think of their properties as &lt;i&gt;homes&lt;/i&gt;, rather than primarily as &quot;investments&quot;; and it starts to make a hell of a lot less sense for Wal*Mart to sit on thousands of empty stores (with attendant parking lots), leasing a few out, but leaving many vacant, because the company wants to consolidate two locations into one supercenter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Returning to my original screed, I&#8217;d suggest that the Distributist idea of instituting a differential tax — one applied after any (retail) firm exceeds a certain number of stores, which increases more steeply with each expansion beyond a certain number of locations — is a good one. Yes, it&#8217;s a tax that &#8220;discourages growth&#8221;, but it&#8217;s one that, rather than burdening every entrepreneur who takes the risk, gives the established businessman a choice: stay (relatively) small and local or pay taxes to expand. Imperfect? Sure. But better than pro-big-business policy and more expansive taxation? I think so.</p>
<p>Also, I think the Georgist land-value tax offers a reasonable partial solution: No longer does it make sense for speculators to sit on property, waiting for values to increase; homeowners, we can hope, begin again to think of their properties as <i>homes</i>, rather than primarily as &#8220;investments&#8221;; and it starts to make a hell of a lot less sense for Wal*Mart to sit on thousands of empty stores (with attendant parking lots), leasing a few out, but leaving many vacant, because the company wants to consolidate two locations into one supercenter.</p>
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		<title>By: Nathan P. Origer</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/08/localism-and-free-trade/#comment-16926</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathan P. Origer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Aug 2009 23:47:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=7338#comment-16926</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;c. It’s increased the productivity of Americans by staggering amounts.&lt;/i&gt;

Is this an intrinsically good thing. You tacitly posit that it is, but I&#039;m convinced neither by the following sentences nor by the peculiar conceptions about efficiency and &quot;productivity&quot; to which we collectively  adhere.

Also, although E.D. is right to point out the IHS, he is far from complete in his painting of the picture. The favoritism shown to Wal*Mart (and other larger concerns) even by perfidious officials in our &lt;i&gt;local&lt;/i&gt; governments — in the form of tax breaks, training-program grants, roadway improvements, &lt;i&gt;et cetera — plus&lt;/i&gt; the extent to which employees of Wal*Mart (and their children) comprise sizable portions of state health insurance programs, &lt;i&gt;inter alia&lt;/i&gt;: When we take all of this into consideration, those cheap Wally World prices  that Mr. Cheeks enjoys and all of that convenience start to look a lost costlier, particularly when these easily ignored/swept-under-the-rug monetary costs are combined with serious environmental degradation and the loss of local cultural, political, and economic autonomy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>c. It’s increased the productivity of Americans by staggering amounts.</i></p>
<p>Is this an intrinsically good thing. You tacitly posit that it is, but I&#8217;m convinced neither by the following sentences nor by the peculiar conceptions about efficiency and &#8220;productivity&#8221; to which we collectively  adhere.</p>
<p>Also, although E.D. is right to point out the IHS, he is far from complete in his painting of the picture. The favoritism shown to Wal*Mart (and other larger concerns) even by perfidious officials in our <i>local</i> governments — in the form of tax breaks, training-program grants, roadway improvements, <i>et cetera — plus</i> the extent to which employees of Wal*Mart (and their children) comprise sizable portions of state health insurance programs, <i>inter alia</i>: When we take all of this into consideration, those cheap Wally World prices  that Mr. Cheeks enjoys and all of that convenience start to look a lost costlier, particularly when these easily ignored/swept-under-the-rug monetary costs are combined with serious environmental degradation and the loss of local cultural, political, and economic autonomy.</p>
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		<title>By: Sycophant of the Bourgeois</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/08/localism-and-free-trade/#comment-16819</link>
		<dc:creator>Sycophant of the Bourgeois</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Aug 2009 16:15:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=7338#comment-16819</guid>
		<description>It simply requires deeper investigation of the term &quot;pubic good.&quot;  True non-rivalry and non-excludability are only enjoyed by one thing, ideas; infinitely reproducible and impossible to own, yet the government has decided to control them.

When we label things public goods, we open them for true abuse by individuals and &quot;externalities.&quot;  When we made roads a public good, they become overcrowded, slow,  and inefficient.  When we claimed the state owns rivers, lakes, and streams, they become overused, polluted, and unsustainably abused.  When the government claimed ownership of the EM spectrum it stagnated development into signal processing and opened up worlds of rent seeking behavior.  AM and FM are 50 year old technologies and have had very little improvement since government usurped the spectrum.

The failures are there, and the list only gets longer as time goes on.  I suspect the problem has much more to do with governments than markets.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It simply requires deeper investigation of the term &#8220;pubic good.&#8221;  True non-rivalry and non-excludability are only enjoyed by one thing, ideas; infinitely reproducible and impossible to own, yet the government has decided to control them.</p>
<p>When we label things public goods, we open them for true abuse by individuals and &#8220;externalities.&#8221;  When we made roads a public good, they become overcrowded, slow,  and inefficient.  When we claimed the state owns rivers, lakes, and streams, they become overused, polluted, and unsustainably abused.  When the government claimed ownership of the EM spectrum it stagnated development into signal processing and opened up worlds of rent seeking behavior.  AM and FM are 50 year old technologies and have had very little improvement since government usurped the spectrum.</p>
<p>The failures are there, and the list only gets longer as time goes on.  I suspect the problem has much more to do with governments than markets.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/08/localism-and-free-trade/#comment-16788</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Aug 2009 13:42:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=7338#comment-16788</guid>
		<description>Mike I am not for blanket protectionism. Maintaining competition is important. We need to welcome innovation. The current system though is not balanced. It is dangerous because it is not free trade with the artificial manipulation of currencies and distortion of the interest and currency rates of the United States. Trade with other countries I believe should be balanced by fairness. Why do I believe that? Because I believe there is no virtue in a system where one country has the right to get the better of another country, nor one small group of people the better of all others. That is not to say we should attempt to nullify personal initiative and talent in enterprise just that there should be better balance. The Sub-Prime Disaster is simply a signal to us all that thirty years of neo-liberal economic policy and manipulative &quot;unfree&quot; trade has delivered great imbalance. The renewed interest in the ideas of distributism as a middle way between neo-liberalism and socialism is also recognition of the need to find this better balance and allow more virtue in our societies. It may not be the best way but point me out any other system that is attempting to seriously provide balance.

As I argue in my previous post to have virtue in society &quot;we have to tolerate limits on our individual freedoms&quot;. This is just another way of also saying to have balance we have to recognize that Liberty is about Control not just in political matters as the Founding Fathers thought but also in economic matters. It is the issue of Control that makes it so important for our times to debate, understand and redefine the role of the State. The Sub-Prime Disaster has made clear to us that we can no longer afford to allow the capture of the State by self-centered elites. But we cannot go back to the small population and substantially property-less hunter-gatherer tribes that decided matters by consent. The Hippie communes of the Sixties were the failed experiments in that direction. These are some of the reasons I cannot be a Libertarian.  I actually think Libertarians act as an impediment to having the necessary discussion on the role of the State and also stand in the way of rational discussion of what limits we should tolerate on our individual freedoms because they largely want no limits. Here to dramatically illustrate my point is an extreme example of the importance of society debating and enacting limits. Milton Friedman, a famous libertarian, wanted no limits on the sale of narcotic drugs. Today in Afghanistan opium addiction is a major problem. Babies are born addicted and mothers blow opium smoke in their faces to pacify them and give them their &quot;fix&quot;. Where is the virtue in this?  A child surely is entitled to rights? If you believe they do then you have to also believe that Liberty must entail Control. That would mean that if you had lived in the nineteenth century you would believe that the British East India Company (the huge corporate conglomerate that caused the American Revolution) should be prevented by government imposed law from importing opium into China. British military power prevented the Chinese government from doing this so you would have to rely upon the British government doing this. However, since influential members of Parliament also held stock in the East India Company this made it difficult to pass such law. Lack of virtue continues in global trading to this day!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike I am not for blanket protectionism. Maintaining competition is important. We need to welcome innovation. The current system though is not balanced. It is dangerous because it is not free trade with the artificial manipulation of currencies and distortion of the interest and currency rates of the United States. Trade with other countries I believe should be balanced by fairness. Why do I believe that? Because I believe there is no virtue in a system where one country has the right to get the better of another country, nor one small group of people the better of all others. That is not to say we should attempt to nullify personal initiative and talent in enterprise just that there should be better balance. The Sub-Prime Disaster is simply a signal to us all that thirty years of neo-liberal economic policy and manipulative &#8220;unfree&#8221; trade has delivered great imbalance. The renewed interest in the ideas of distributism as a middle way between neo-liberalism and socialism is also recognition of the need to find this better balance and allow more virtue in our societies. It may not be the best way but point me out any other system that is attempting to seriously provide balance.</p>
<p>As I argue in my previous post to have virtue in society &#8220;we have to tolerate limits on our individual freedoms&#8221;. This is just another way of also saying to have balance we have to recognize that Liberty is about Control not just in political matters as the Founding Fathers thought but also in economic matters. It is the issue of Control that makes it so important for our times to debate, understand and redefine the role of the State. The Sub-Prime Disaster has made clear to us that we can no longer afford to allow the capture of the State by self-centered elites. But we cannot go back to the small population and substantially property-less hunter-gatherer tribes that decided matters by consent. The Hippie communes of the Sixties were the failed experiments in that direction. These are some of the reasons I cannot be a Libertarian.  I actually think Libertarians act as an impediment to having the necessary discussion on the role of the State and also stand in the way of rational discussion of what limits we should tolerate on our individual freedoms because they largely want no limits. Here to dramatically illustrate my point is an extreme example of the importance of society debating and enacting limits. Milton Friedman, a famous libertarian, wanted no limits on the sale of narcotic drugs. Today in Afghanistan opium addiction is a major problem. Babies are born addicted and mothers blow opium smoke in their faces to pacify them and give them their &#8220;fix&#8221;. Where is the virtue in this?  A child surely is entitled to rights? If you believe they do then you have to also believe that Liberty must entail Control. That would mean that if you had lived in the nineteenth century you would believe that the British East India Company (the huge corporate conglomerate that caused the American Revolution) should be prevented by government imposed law from importing opium into China. British military power prevented the Chinese government from doing this so you would have to rely upon the British government doing this. However, since influential members of Parliament also held stock in the East India Company this made it difficult to pass such law. Lack of virtue continues in global trading to this day!</p>
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		<title>By: mike farmer</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/08/localism-and-free-trade/#comment-16782</link>
		<dc:creator>mike farmer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Aug 2009 04:46:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=7338#comment-16782</guid>
		<description>So, are you saying we should develop protectionist policies -- what policies to do think would remedy the unfair advantage in trade? Now that I know what you are against that won&#039;t work, what are you for that will work? My position is that even with all the problems we face in global trade, free trade is still better than protectionism. As China becomes richer and it focuses on what it does best, we will also be focusing on what we do best -- no country can do it all efficiently. Plus, our innovation, productivity and creativity will keep us competitive, unless we hamstring businesses and entrepreneurs by fighting progress and attempting to create some static, safe system to protect workers against change.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, are you saying we should develop protectionist policies &#8212; what policies to do think would remedy the unfair advantage in trade? Now that I know what you are against that won&#8217;t work, what are you for that will work? My position is that even with all the problems we face in global trade, free trade is still better than protectionism. As China becomes richer and it focuses on what it does best, we will also be focusing on what we do best &#8212; no country can do it all efficiently. Plus, our innovation, productivity and creativity will keep us competitive, unless we hamstring businesses and entrepreneurs by fighting progress and attempting to create some static, safe system to protect workers against change.</p>
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		<title>By: greginak</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/08/localism-and-free-trade/#comment-16773</link>
		<dc:creator>greginak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Aug 2009 01:22:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=7338#comment-16773</guid>
		<description>And free markets can be posited as a solution to everything. Government can be blamed for everything and assumed to be universally ineffective. Every position can be taken to a foolish extreme. Logical fallacies don&#039;t invalidate the substance of theories.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And free markets can be posited as a solution to everything. Government can be blamed for everything and assumed to be universally ineffective. Every position can be taken to a foolish extreme. Logical fallacies don&#8217;t invalidate the substance of theories.</p>
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		<title>By: Sycophant of the Bourgeois</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/08/localism-and-free-trade/#comment-16772</link>
		<dc:creator>Sycophant of the Bourgeois</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Aug 2009 00:47:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=7338#comment-16772</guid>
		<description>The problem with this analysis is every good can be called a &quot;public good&quot; in one form or another.  Food is a public good; when I&#039;ve eaten well I can work hard to make things for us to trade.  Me eating helps you, yet you have no direct incentives to give me food (Identical to the justifications for public schools/health/welfare etc.).  And so goes the roundabout explanations for ever expanding state interventions from apparently reasonable people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem with this analysis is every good can be called a &#8220;public good&#8221; in one form or another.  Food is a public good; when I&#8217;ve eaten well I can work hard to make things for us to trade.  Me eating helps you, yet you have no direct incentives to give me food (Identical to the justifications for public schools/health/welfare etc.).  And so goes the roundabout explanations for ever expanding state interventions from apparently reasonable people.</p>
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		<title>By: Francis</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/08/localism-and-free-trade/#comment-16766</link>
		<dc:creator>Francis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Aug 2009 22:56:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=7338#comment-16766</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ll agree that the interstate system is a necessary (but far from sufficient) condition for the success of Wal-Mart.  Three points, though:

a.  It already exists;
b.  It&#039;s incredibly popular;
c.  It&#039;s increased the productivity of Americans by staggering amounts.

What&#039;s the first things that the western forces did upon conquering Afghanistan (the most recent version)?  Start building roads.  Connecting communities to each other is critical to ending rural isolation and (therefore) poverty.

Mind you, there are big chunks of this country, in the Dakotas, Montana and Alaska, that are miles upon miles from any good road.  There is nothing to prevent a die-hard localist from relocating there.  (Of course, the US Mail plus an internet connection will prevent too much hardship.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll agree that the interstate system is a necessary (but far from sufficient) condition for the success of Wal-Mart.  Three points, though:</p>
<p>a.  It already exists;<br />
b.  It&#8217;s incredibly popular;<br />
c.  It&#8217;s increased the productivity of Americans by staggering amounts.</p>
<p>What&#8217;s the first things that the western forces did upon conquering Afghanistan (the most recent version)?  Start building roads.  Connecting communities to each other is critical to ending rural isolation and (therefore) poverty.</p>
<p>Mind you, there are big chunks of this country, in the Dakotas, Montana and Alaska, that are miles upon miles from any good road.  There is nothing to prevent a die-hard localist from relocating there.  (Of course, the US Mail plus an internet connection will prevent too much hardship.)</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/08/localism-and-free-trade/#comment-16759</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Aug 2009 21:29:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=7338#comment-16759</guid>
		<description>Erik. Correct me if I&#039;m wrong but I don&#039;t think TLOOG has ever paid much attention to analyzing the role of the State. I&#039;ve always hoped you would. Sure there has been plenty of criticism especially by the Libertarians but little attempt to understand the reason for its existence. Of course the state has been subject to capture by the baddies but what&#039;s news and that hardly means it&#039;s invalid. I tend to find myself in the middle of the vector politics chart and largely subscribe to the views of the 20th century Liberal LT Hobhouse. He argued we all want maximum individual freedom but we live in large societies and to keep our freedoms and societies from being destroyed by other individuals we have to tolerate limits on our individual freedoms. He believed the only acceptable body able to impose these limits in a large society is a democratically elected state.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Erik. Correct me if I&#8217;m wrong but I don&#8217;t think TLOOG has ever paid much attention to analyzing the role of the State. I&#8217;ve always hoped you would. Sure there has been plenty of criticism especially by the Libertarians but little attempt to understand the reason for its existence. Of course the state has been subject to capture by the baddies but what&#8217;s news and that hardly means it&#8217;s invalid. I tend to find myself in the middle of the vector politics chart and largely subscribe to the views of the 20th century Liberal LT Hobhouse. He argued we all want maximum individual freedom but we live in large societies and to keep our freedoms and societies from being destroyed by other individuals we have to tolerate limits on our individual freedoms. He believed the only acceptable body able to impose these limits in a large society is a democratically elected state.</p>
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