<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Fiscal Responsibility, part II</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/11/fiscal-responsibility-part-ii/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/11/fiscal-responsibility-part-ii/</link>
	<description></description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 20 Mar 2010 14:56:19 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2</generator>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
		<item>
		<title>By: Fiscal responsibility, part II &#171; The United States of Jamerica</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/11/fiscal-responsibility-part-ii/#comment-32210</link>
		<dc:creator>Fiscal responsibility, part II &#171; The United States of Jamerica</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 04:55:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=11278#comment-32210</guid>
		<description>[...] Fiscal responsibility, part&#160;II 2009 November 26   tags: deficits, presidents, taxation by Jamelle   (Originally posted at the League of Ordinary Gentlemen) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Fiscal responsibility, part&nbsp;II 2009 November 26   tags: deficits, presidents, taxation by Jamelle   (Originally posted at the League of Ordinary Gentlemen) [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: JohnR</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/11/fiscal-responsibility-part-ii/#comment-32168</link>
		<dc:creator>JohnR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 22:08:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=11278#comment-32168</guid>
		<description>&quot;The fact that insane, disingenuous Republicans are now rediscovering their long-abandoned commitment to fiscal discipline..&quot;

I&#039;m sorry; with that assertion (assuming, for arguments&#039; sake that you were actually serious), you&#039;ve just blown up any credibility you might have had in a manner that would make the Muppets&#039; Crazy Harry envious.  What the GOP has &quot;rediscovered&quot; is simply the pleasure of moral-sounding &quot;do as I say, not as I do&quot;-ism.  They rediscover this like clockwork every time they are out of power, only to conveniently re-forget it when they regain power.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The fact that insane, disingenuous Republicans are now rediscovering their long-abandoned commitment to fiscal discipline..&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m sorry; with that assertion (assuming, for arguments&#8217; sake that you were actually serious), you&#8217;ve just blown up any credibility you might have had in a manner that would make the Muppets&#8217; Crazy Harry envious.  What the GOP has &#8220;rediscovered&#8221; is simply the pleasure of moral-sounding &#8220;do as I say, not as I do&#8221;-ism.  They rediscover this like clockwork every time they are out of power, only to conveniently re-forget it when they regain power.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Conor Friedersdorf - Metablog &#8211; Are Republicans or Democrats Bigger Spenders? - True/Slant</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/11/fiscal-responsibility-part-ii/#comment-32064</link>
		<dc:creator>Conor Friedersdorf - Metablog &#8211; Are Republicans or Democrats Bigger Spenders? - True/Slant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 05:40:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=11278#comment-32064</guid>
		<description>[...] my recent post on America&#8217;s dire fiscal situation, Jamelle writes that &#8220;the reflexive, evidence-free dismissal of the CBO scores at the beginning of Conor’s [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] my recent post on America&#8217;s dire fiscal situation, Jamelle writes that &#8220;the reflexive, evidence-free dismissal of the CBO scores at the beginning of Conor’s [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Zach</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/11/fiscal-responsibility-part-ii/#comment-32024</link>
		<dc:creator>Zach</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 23:43:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=11278#comment-32024</guid>
		<description>The point is that subsequent changes to relevant law will almost always make their projections wrong.  Ergo they can&#039;t claim accuracy but can claim to be an honest broker based on historically mirroring private forecasts.

The CBO&#039;s expertise lies in knowing how to read laws and how they interact with existing law.  By design, the CBO&#039;s forecasts preempt the predictions used for comparison, so there is some merit to matching subsequent predictions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The point is that subsequent changes to relevant law will almost always make their projections wrong.  Ergo they can&#8217;t claim accuracy but can claim to be an honest broker based on historically mirroring private forecasts.</p>
<p>The CBO&#8217;s expertise lies in knowing how to read laws and how they interact with existing law.  By design, the CBO&#8217;s forecasts preempt the predictions used for comparison, so there is some merit to matching subsequent predictions.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mecha</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/11/fiscal-responsibility-part-ii/#comment-32014</link>
		<dc:creator>Mecha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 23:01:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=11278#comment-32014</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s worth noting that if you look at the actual trendline given there and do a derivitive (IE: how much is the deficit changing?) the actual entirety of Clinton&#039;s presidency (including the Dem/Dem parts) is negative. This means that even without Republicans, the Clinton presidency was working in the right direction from the start. So let&#039;s not prematurely run with the idea that only when Republicans force Democrats is it possible for there to be deficit reduction. 

That said, I do remember having seen things that support the general point, but I think people are too willing to do the analysis in the abstract, without figuring in the realities of the situations (IE: you should well know that going &#039;lol Dems&#039; to the current budget problems is highly disingenuous, or alternately, taking the first two years of Clinton as &#039;bad&#039; even though it&#039;s clear that they were the first two years of a good trend. Just because you can&#039;t turn around the federal government on a dime...)

-Mecha</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s worth noting that if you look at the actual trendline given there and do a derivitive (IE: how much is the deficit changing?) the actual entirety of Clinton&#8217;s presidency (including the Dem/Dem parts) is negative. This means that even without Republicans, the Clinton presidency was working in the right direction from the start. So let&#8217;s not prematurely run with the idea that only when Republicans force Democrats is it possible for there to be deficit reduction. </p>
<p>That said, I do remember having seen things that support the general point, but I think people are too willing to do the analysis in the abstract, without figuring in the realities of the situations (IE: you should well know that going &#8216;lol Dems&#8217; to the current budget problems is highly disingenuous, or alternately, taking the first two years of Clinton as &#8216;bad&#8217; even though it&#8217;s clear that they were the first two years of a good trend. Just because you can&#8217;t turn around the federal government on a dime&#8230;)</p>
<p>-Mecha</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Freddie</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/11/fiscal-responsibility-part-ii/#comment-31993</link>
		<dc:creator>Freddie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:01:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=11278#comment-31993</guid>
		<description>You&#039;ve responded to my accusation of occluding the issue by... further occluding the issue. The Republicans offer no material alternative on deficit spending to the Democrats, so Conor using that as a pretext for attacking Democrats makes no sense. You haven&#039;t addressed that issue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;ve responded to my accusation of occluding the issue by&#8230; further occluding the issue. The Republicans offer no material alternative on deficit spending to the Democrats, so Conor using that as a pretext for attacking Democrats makes no sense. You haven&#8217;t addressed that issue.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jaybird</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/11/fiscal-responsibility-part-ii/#comment-31979</link>
		<dc:creator>Jaybird</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 19:59:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=11278#comment-31979</guid>
		<description>But, sure, let&#039;s assume for a second that the CBO is telling the truth. Exactly *HOW* is it telling the truth?

Well, there&#039;s an interesting blog post at Reason&#039;s Hit &amp; Run.

http://reason.com/blog/2009/11/24/how-much-does-health-care-refo

Here&#039;s the gist. If you say that the first decade of health care will be from 2010 until 2019, you get one number for the cost of the program. Fair enough. The CBO says that the costs don&#039;t start kicking in until *AFTER* year four is done. So the last 6 years in the decade are the ones where we see costs that are representative of how much it will cost down the road (again, assuming that the actual numbers won&#039;t deviate overly from the CBO&#039;s benchmark).

The costs of the first decade, as stated, are about 40% less than they will be in subsequent decades. Using that number is... well... I&#039;m sure that now that such has been pointed out, at least those on this site will avoid quoting it as the cost.

And, of course, Republicans deserve to be put in an eternal return where they relive Christ&#039;s passion from Thursday until Friday Sunset over and over and over and over and over again like on Groundhog Day, with special attention focused on the moment where they realize that God has forsaken them. Let them scream to the heavens for their absent Father, forever.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But, sure, let&#8217;s assume for a second that the CBO is telling the truth. Exactly *HOW* is it telling the truth?</p>
<p>Well, there&#8217;s an interesting blog post at Reason&#8217;s Hit &amp; Run.</p>
<p><a href="http://reason.com/blog/2009/11/24/how-much-does-health-care-refo" rel="nofollow">http://reason.com/blog/2009/11/24/how-much-does-health-care-refo</a></p>
<p>Here&#8217;s the gist. If you say that the first decade of health care will be from 2010 until 2019, you get one number for the cost of the program. Fair enough. The CBO says that the costs don&#8217;t start kicking in until *AFTER* year four is done. So the last 6 years in the decade are the ones where we see costs that are representative of how much it will cost down the road (again, assuming that the actual numbers won&#8217;t deviate overly from the CBO&#8217;s benchmark).</p>
<p>The costs of the first decade, as stated, are about 40% less than they will be in subsequent decades. Using that number is&#8230; well&#8230; I&#8217;m sure that now that such has been pointed out, at least those on this site will avoid quoting it as the cost.</p>
<p>And, of course, Republicans deserve to be put in an eternal return where they relive Christ&#8217;s passion from Thursday until Friday Sunset over and over and over and over and over again like on Groundhog Day, with special attention focused on the moment where they realize that God has forsaken them. Let them scream to the heavens for their absent Father, forever.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jaybird</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/11/fiscal-responsibility-part-ii/#comment-31966</link>
		<dc:creator>Jaybird</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 19:00:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=11278#comment-31966</guid>
		<description>I did some binging (that word right there is why bing will never overtake the google) and found that the CBO claims not accuracy but consensus. Here is a direct quote from the site:

&quot;Historically, the accuracy of CBO&#039;s two-year forecasts and five-year projections has been very similar to the accuracy of those by the Blue Chip consensus (an average of private-sector forecasters) and the Administration.&quot;

Given that the question was &quot;How accurate are CBO&#039;s economic forecasts?&quot;, the answer of &quot;we come to many of the same conclusions as other folks!&quot; is one that leads me to this conclusion:

If the CBO were accurate, they&#039;d say &quot;we&#039;re accurate&quot;. If they could make a vague case that they were pretty accurate all other things being equal, they&#039;d say &quot;we&#039;re pretty accurate all other things being equal.&quot; They didn&#039;t even say *THAT*. They said &quot;we reached the same conclusions as other folks.&quot; Fair enough, I guess. No one knows what the economy will look like in a decade, right?

So what about the budget predictions? Let&#039;s look at *THAT* question and answer:
How accurate are CBO&#039;s budget projections?
&lt;i&gt;By statute, CBO&#039;s baseline projections must estimate the future paths of federal spending and revenues under current law and policies. The baseline is therefore not intended to be a prediction of future budgetary outcomes; instead, it is meant to serve as a neutral benchmark that lawmakers can use to measure the effects of proposed changes to spending and taxes. So for that reason and others, actual budgetary outcomes are almost certain to differ from CBO&#039;s baseline projections.&lt;/i&gt;

Look at that answer again.

Read it yourself:
http://www.cbo.gov/aboutcbo/faqs.shtml

I can&#039;t claim to reach any conclusion but this: when it comes to economic forecasts, they crib from the consensus. When it comes to budget forecasts, they don&#039;t even pretend that their info is anything more than a &quot;benchmark&quot;.

I&#039;m not terribly impressed.

(And, of course, Republicans should go to hell and be impaled on firey spits and have their innards eaten by red (fireproof!) ants as they scream for relief, mercy, even annihilation, from the Democrats who will be able to joyously answer &quot;no&quot; from their vantage point in heaven.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I did some binging (that word right there is why bing will never overtake the google) and found that the CBO claims not accuracy but consensus. Here is a direct quote from the site:</p>
<p>&#8220;Historically, the accuracy of CBO&#8217;s two-year forecasts and five-year projections has been very similar to the accuracy of those by the Blue Chip consensus (an average of private-sector forecasters) and the Administration.&#8221;</p>
<p>Given that the question was &#8220;How accurate are CBO&#8217;s economic forecasts?&#8221;, the answer of &#8220;we come to many of the same conclusions as other folks!&#8221; is one that leads me to this conclusion:</p>
<p>If the CBO were accurate, they&#8217;d say &#8220;we&#8217;re accurate&#8221;. If they could make a vague case that they were pretty accurate all other things being equal, they&#8217;d say &#8220;we&#8217;re pretty accurate all other things being equal.&#8221; They didn&#8217;t even say *THAT*. They said &#8220;we reached the same conclusions as other folks.&#8221; Fair enough, I guess. No one knows what the economy will look like in a decade, right?</p>
<p>So what about the budget predictions? Let&#8217;s look at *THAT* question and answer:<br />
How accurate are CBO&#8217;s budget projections?<br />
<i>By statute, CBO&#8217;s baseline projections must estimate the future paths of federal spending and revenues under current law and policies. The baseline is therefore not intended to be a prediction of future budgetary outcomes; instead, it is meant to serve as a neutral benchmark that lawmakers can use to measure the effects of proposed changes to spending and taxes. So for that reason and others, actual budgetary outcomes are almost certain to differ from CBO&#8217;s baseline projections.</i></p>
<p>Look at that answer again.</p>
<p>Read it yourself:<br />
<a href="http://www.cbo.gov/aboutcbo/faqs.shtml" rel="nofollow">http://www.cbo.gov/aboutcbo/faqs.shtml</a></p>
<p>I can&#8217;t claim to reach any conclusion but this: when it comes to economic forecasts, they crib from the consensus. When it comes to budget forecasts, they don&#8217;t even pretend that their info is anything more than a &#8220;benchmark&#8221;.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not terribly impressed.</p>
<p>(And, of course, Republicans should go to hell and be impaled on firey spits and have their innards eaten by red (fireproof!) ants as they scream for relief, mercy, even annihilation, from the Democrats who will be able to joyously answer &#8220;no&#8221; from their vantage point in heaven.)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: JPB</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/11/fiscal-responsibility-part-ii/#comment-31965</link>
		<dc:creator>JPB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 18:58:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=11278#comment-31965</guid>
		<description>You lost me at &quot;With the exception of nearly a trillion dollars in outlays to people proven to be god awful with money and making products people want to buy...&quot;

We&#039;re not a year into this presidency and the fiscal record to date is atrocious.  I wish people would stop making this an R versus D thing. So long as you continue in that dynamic, it&#039;s just the Rs wanting to waste billions/trillions on their shitty ideas and Ds wanting to waste billions/trillions on theirs. 

The fact that insane, disingenuous Republicans are now rediscovering their long-abandoned commitment to fiscal discipline doesn&#039;t mean they are wrong. Nowhere did I promote anything remotely Republican. 

The problem for principled advocates of restrained government spending and intrusion is that we&#039;re lumped in with the Limbaughs and the Becks, casting our genuine and legitimate qualms with populist nutjobs. It isn&#039;t that there aren&#039;t principled opponents of Obama&#039;s (and Bush&#039;s) spending programs, but that the loudest ones getting all the attention make it seem as if the only people against it are doing so for partisan or otherwise disingenuous reasons.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You lost me at &#8220;With the exception of nearly a trillion dollars in outlays to people proven to be god awful with money and making products people want to buy&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>We&#8217;re not a year into this presidency and the fiscal record to date is atrocious.  I wish people would stop making this an R versus D thing. So long as you continue in that dynamic, it&#8217;s just the Rs wanting to waste billions/trillions on their shitty ideas and Ds wanting to waste billions/trillions on theirs. </p>
<p>The fact that insane, disingenuous Republicans are now rediscovering their long-abandoned commitment to fiscal discipline doesn&#8217;t mean they are wrong. Nowhere did I promote anything remotely Republican. </p>
<p>The problem for principled advocates of restrained government spending and intrusion is that we&#8217;re lumped in with the Limbaughs and the Becks, casting our genuine and legitimate qualms with populist nutjobs. It isn&#8217;t that there aren&#8217;t principled opponents of Obama&#8217;s (and Bush&#8217;s) spending programs, but that the loudest ones getting all the attention make it seem as if the only people against it are doing so for partisan or otherwise disingenuous reasons.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: zic</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/11/fiscal-responsibility-part-ii/#comment-31963</link>
		<dc:creator>zic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 18:54:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=11278#comment-31963</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s not about reality; it&#039;s about appearances, Freddie. What they say is more important then what they do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s not about reality; it&#8217;s about appearances, Freddie. What they say is more important then what they do.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
