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	<title>Comments on: Same Sex Marriage, the Courts, and Religious Liberty: How Much of a Conflict?</title>
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	<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/11/same-sex-marriage-the-courts-and-religious-liberty-how-much-of-a-conflict/</link>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/11/same-sex-marriage-the-courts-and-religious-liberty-how-much-of-a-conflict/#comment-31713</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 22:40:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=11085#comment-31713</guid>
		<description>&quot;It is impossible to conceive how a law prohibiting sexual orientation discrimination in the private sector is a greater or materially different burden on religious liberty than a law prohibiting religious discrimination!&quot;

This is a very important point, and one all too frequently overlooked by commentators who complain that laws prohibting discrimination based on sexual orientation threaten religious liberty.   If a Christian innkeeper&#039;s religious freedom is harmed by being forced to accommodate a same-sex couple, then a Muslim innkeeper would have an equally strong claim that his freedom is harmed by being forced to accommodate unmarried women, or women who don&#039;t cover their heads, for example.   Is a shopkeeper who believes that graven images are blasphemous have a right to refuse service to a Catholic who wears a crucifix?  There are endless examples, and they all point to the reasons why we don&#039;t allow religious exemptions simply because a businessperson has strongly held religous views.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;It is impossible to conceive how a law prohibiting sexual orientation discrimination in the private sector is a greater or materially different burden on religious liberty than a law prohibiting religious discrimination!&#8221;</p>
<p>This is a very important point, and one all too frequently overlooked by commentators who complain that laws prohibting discrimination based on sexual orientation threaten religious liberty.   If a Christian innkeeper&#8217;s religious freedom is harmed by being forced to accommodate a same-sex couple, then a Muslim innkeeper would have an equally strong claim that his freedom is harmed by being forced to accommodate unmarried women, or women who don&#8217;t cover their heads, for example.   Is a shopkeeper who believes that graven images are blasphemous have a right to refuse service to a Catholic who wears a crucifix?  There are endless examples, and they all point to the reasons why we don&#8217;t allow religious exemptions simply because a businessperson has strongly held religous views.</p>
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		<title>By: Cascadian</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/11/same-sex-marriage-the-courts-and-religious-liberty-how-much-of-a-conflict/#comment-31650</link>
		<dc:creator>Cascadian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 18:35:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=11085#comment-31650</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re on.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/11/same-sex-marriage-the-courts-and-religious-liberty-how-much-of-a-conflict/#comment-31649</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 18:25:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=11085#comment-31649</guid>
		<description>Cascadian - I&#039;d like to join your Rastafarian temple to Dionysus and Aphrodite, so I can exercise my freedom of religion, too (my freedom of philosophy isn&#039;t given the same rights in this country).  As a charter member of the temple, can I help write the by-laws... I mean, uh... religious tenets?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cascadian &#8211; I&#8217;d like to join your Rastafarian temple to Dionysus and Aphrodite, so I can exercise my freedom of religion, too (my freedom of philosophy isn&#8217;t given the same rights in this country).  As a charter member of the temple, can I help write the by-laws&#8230; I mean, uh&#8230; religious tenets?</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Thompson</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/11/same-sex-marriage-the-courts-and-religious-liberty-how-much-of-a-conflict/#comment-31647</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Thompson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 18:19:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=11085#comment-31647</guid>
		<description>Without getting into the general freedom of association issues inherent in any anti-discrimination law, the case for making a special exemption for religions rests as much, and possibly more, on the Establishment clause as opposed to the free exercise clause.  When government starts telling religions &lt;i&gt;qua&lt;/i&gt; religions what they can and cannot accept as a matter of religious doctrine, the government is in a very real sense &quot;establishing&quot; its own religion.  There are limitations on this, of course, but generally they have to do with matter of criminal rather than civil violations.  Presumably, part of the rationale for this would be that the State&#039;s interest in enforcing criminal laws of general applicability is far greater than its interest in enforcing civil laws of general applicability.  

In the case of discrimination laws, there&#039;s also an added element of inquiring into the actor&#039;s motive that does not exist in the relevant criminal contexts - if you&#039;re bringing someone up on a drug charge, you don&#039;t need to prove that they had a bad reason for having the drugs, just that they knowingly possessed the drugs; on the other hand, if you&#039;re going to file a discrimination suit against someone, you need to be able to show not only a &lt;i&gt;prima facie&lt;/i&gt; case of discrimination, but also that their proffered, non-discriminatory reasons for discriminating are merely pretexts.  In the case of a religious organization arguing that they refused to marry a couple not because they hate gays but because gay marriage is against their religious doctrine, there&#039;s no way for a court (which is an institution of the State) to reach a decision on whether that rationale is pretextual without engaging in a rigorous inquiry into the legitimacy of the church&#039;s doctrine.  

There is arguably a distinction to be made where you&#039;re dealing with an employer who happens to be a member of the church rather than the church &lt;i&gt;qua&lt;/i&gt; church on the grounds that an employee&#039;s private activities are not conceivably relevant to the performance of his job.  In other words, it&#039;s intrinsically true that part of the job description of a Catholic priest or a Baptist minister or a Muslim imam or a Jewish Rabbi is being a good Catholic, Baptist, Muslim, or Jew; however, in most forms of lay employment, being a good Catholic, Baptist, Muslim, or Jew is probably not relevant to one&#039;s job description.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Without getting into the general freedom of association issues inherent in any anti-discrimination law, the case for making a special exemption for religions rests as much, and possibly more, on the Establishment clause as opposed to the free exercise clause.  When government starts telling religions <i>qua</i> religions what they can and cannot accept as a matter of religious doctrine, the government is in a very real sense &#8220;establishing&#8221; its own religion.  There are limitations on this, of course, but generally they have to do with matter of criminal rather than civil violations.  Presumably, part of the rationale for this would be that the State&#8217;s interest in enforcing criminal laws of general applicability is far greater than its interest in enforcing civil laws of general applicability.  </p>
<p>In the case of discrimination laws, there&#8217;s also an added element of inquiring into the actor&#8217;s motive that does not exist in the relevant criminal contexts &#8211; if you&#8217;re bringing someone up on a drug charge, you don&#8217;t need to prove that they had a bad reason for having the drugs, just that they knowingly possessed the drugs; on the other hand, if you&#8217;re going to file a discrimination suit against someone, you need to be able to show not only a <i>prima facie</i> case of discrimination, but also that their proffered, non-discriminatory reasons for discriminating are merely pretexts.  In the case of a religious organization arguing that they refused to marry a couple not because they hate gays but because gay marriage is against their religious doctrine, there&#8217;s no way for a court (which is an institution of the State) to reach a decision on whether that rationale is pretextual without engaging in a rigorous inquiry into the legitimacy of the church&#8217;s doctrine.  </p>
<p>There is arguably a distinction to be made where you&#8217;re dealing with an employer who happens to be a member of the church rather than the church <i>qua</i> church on the grounds that an employee&#8217;s private activities are not conceivably relevant to the performance of his job.  In other words, it&#8217;s intrinsically true that part of the job description of a Catholic priest or a Baptist minister or a Muslim imam or a Jewish Rabbi is being a good Catholic, Baptist, Muslim, or Jew; however, in most forms of lay employment, being a good Catholic, Baptist, Muslim, or Jew is probably not relevant to one&#8217;s job description.</p>
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		<title>By: Cascadian</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/11/same-sex-marriage-the-courts-and-religious-liberty-how-much-of-a-conflict/#comment-31643</link>
		<dc:creator>Cascadian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 17:37:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=11085#comment-31643</guid>
		<description>If religious freedom and the establishment clause were truly taken seriously, I could finally open that little Rastafarian temple to Dionysus and Aphrodite I&#039;ve always dreamed of.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If religious freedom and the establishment clause were truly taken seriously, I could finally open that little Rastafarian temple to Dionysus and Aphrodite I&#8217;ve always dreamed of.</p>
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		<title>By: Jaybird</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/11/same-sex-marriage-the-courts-and-religious-liberty-how-much-of-a-conflict/#comment-31638</link>
		<dc:creator>Jaybird</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 17:20:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=11085#comment-31638</guid>
		<description>For the record, I am 100% down with opening a restaurant and the owner refusing to serve a particular group of clients. &quot;We don&#039;t serve your kind here&quot;, the owner could say. Then those people (Baptist ministers, in this case) could claim that they have a right to eat wherever they wanted, even at the &quot;Methodists Only&quot; diner.

I think that the government, of course, ought to not have a lock on permits for restaurants, of course. If the Baptists want to open a restaurant, the government should pretty much rubber-stamp their application. I oppose the very idea of making things really easy for Methodists to open a diner but to put roadblocks in front of Baptists...

But I&#039;m one of those evil people who think that the Methodist Diner should be allowed to have a smoking section too, if the owner is inclined to allow smoking on his property. They can put a sign in the window:
&quot;Cigarettes YES! Bapists NO!&quot;

And if you don&#039;t want to eat at the diner, you don&#039;t have to. You can go to the Baptist diner down the road. They don&#039;t smoke, or drink, or chew, or date the girls who do. It&#039;s a much nicer environment to get a cuppa and a slice of pie. No cigarette smoke or nothing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For the record, I am 100% down with opening a restaurant and the owner refusing to serve a particular group of clients. &#8220;We don&#8217;t serve your kind here&#8221;, the owner could say. Then those people (Baptist ministers, in this case) could claim that they have a right to eat wherever they wanted, even at the &#8220;Methodists Only&#8221; diner.</p>
<p>I think that the government, of course, ought to not have a lock on permits for restaurants, of course. If the Baptists want to open a restaurant, the government should pretty much rubber-stamp their application. I oppose the very idea of making things really easy for Methodists to open a diner but to put roadblocks in front of Baptists&#8230;</p>
<p>But I&#8217;m one of those evil people who think that the Methodist Diner should be allowed to have a smoking section too, if the owner is inclined to allow smoking on his property. They can put a sign in the window:<br />
&#8220;Cigarettes YES! Bapists NO!&#8221;</p>
<p>And if you don&#8217;t want to eat at the diner, you don&#8217;t have to. You can go to the Baptist diner down the road. They don&#8217;t smoke, or drink, or chew, or date the girls who do. It&#8217;s a much nicer environment to get a cuppa and a slice of pie. No cigarette smoke or nothing.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/11/same-sex-marriage-the-courts-and-religious-liberty-how-much-of-a-conflict/#comment-31628</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 17:01:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=11085#comment-31628</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m new to this blog, and not an attorney, so please grant me a little leeway here.  I&#039;m basically confused as to why religious belief *should* except someone from anti-discrimination law.  Yes, I know we have Constitutional protection for the free exercise of religion and also judicial precedent.  That&#039;s not what I&#039;m talking about.  On a more philosophical level, I&#039;m just curious why &quot;religious&quot; belief should be acceptable as a basis for discriminating, when &quot;philosophical&quot; belief or &quot;worldview&quot; or non-religious but deeply held &quot;personal values&quot; do not get this same latitude.  Why should the religious convictions of one person be treated as inviolable, when another person&#039;s worldview does not get the same protections?  Why should a Baptist preacher be allowed not to marry a gay couple, but the gay couple can&#039;t refuse to serve the Baptist preacher in their place of business because of the preacher&#039;s refusal to marry them?  Is it really just the claim of heavenly inspiration that makes discrimination OK in the first instance?  I don&#039;t see why religion should be given protections that other deeply-held but non-religious belief systems don&#039;t enjoy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m new to this blog, and not an attorney, so please grant me a little leeway here.  I&#8217;m basically confused as to why religious belief *should* except someone from anti-discrimination law.  Yes, I know we have Constitutional protection for the free exercise of religion and also judicial precedent.  That&#8217;s not what I&#8217;m talking about.  On a more philosophical level, I&#8217;m just curious why &#8220;religious&#8221; belief should be acceptable as a basis for discriminating, when &#8220;philosophical&#8221; belief or &#8220;worldview&#8221; or non-religious but deeply held &#8220;personal values&#8221; do not get this same latitude.  Why should the religious convictions of one person be treated as inviolable, when another person&#8217;s worldview does not get the same protections?  Why should a Baptist preacher be allowed not to marry a gay couple, but the gay couple can&#8217;t refuse to serve the Baptist preacher in their place of business because of the preacher&#8217;s refusal to marry them?  Is it really just the claim of heavenly inspiration that makes discrimination OK in the first instance?  I don&#8217;t see why religion should be given protections that other deeply-held but non-religious belief systems don&#8217;t enjoy.</p>
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		<title>By: Kent</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/11/same-sex-marriage-the-courts-and-religious-liberty-how-much-of-a-conflict/#comment-31613</link>
		<dc:creator>Kent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 14:14:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=11085#comment-31613</guid>
		<description>The link provided to support the assertion that the DC Council threatens to pull its contracts with Catholic Charities does not, in fact, support that claim.  The DC Council would prefer that Catholic Charities continue its work under city contracts but expects the recipient of any contract to abide by the non-discrimination law.  The threat was issued by the Archdiocese when it declared that these charitable, non-religious functions would cease if the city amended the law.  As Mark points out, it is common for religious discrimination to be defended by claims of infringement of religious liberty.  Yet, obviously, this slippery slope works both ways.  The Archdiocese is essentially threatening innocent third parties in order to expand the scope of its own, internal discrimination policies into the public sphere.   And that, as they say, is not very Christian of them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The link provided to support the assertion that the DC Council threatens to pull its contracts with Catholic Charities does not, in fact, support that claim.  The DC Council would prefer that Catholic Charities continue its work under city contracts but expects the recipient of any contract to abide by the non-discrimination law.  The threat was issued by the Archdiocese when it declared that these charitable, non-religious functions would cease if the city amended the law.  As Mark points out, it is common for religious discrimination to be defended by claims of infringement of religious liberty.  Yet, obviously, this slippery slope works both ways.  The Archdiocese is essentially threatening innocent third parties in order to expand the scope of its own, internal discrimination policies into the public sphere.   And that, as they say, is not very Christian of them.</p>
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		<title>By: Positive Liberty &#187; My Pessimism Continues.</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/11/same-sex-marriage-the-courts-and-religious-liberty-how-much-of-a-conflict/#comment-31477</link>
		<dc:creator>Positive Liberty &#187; My Pessimism Continues.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 15:39:03 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] understood, this should not be the case, as Mark Thompson authoritatively points out. Longstanding legal precedents shield religions from discrimination lawsuits, even in matters of [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] understood, this should not be the case, as Mark Thompson authoritatively points out. Longstanding legal precedents shield religions from discrimination lawsuits, even in matters of [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Miller</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/11/same-sex-marriage-the-courts-and-religious-liberty-how-much-of-a-conflict/#comment-31220</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 15:37:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=11085#comment-31220</guid>
		<description>Great article! I think, at the end of the day, Dreher is afraid not of government force, but of social sanction.  He wants it to be &lt;i&gt;OK&lt;/i&gt; to discriminate against gays.  His biggest worry, I think, is that churches that refuse to perform same-sex marriage will be treated the same way as those who refuse to perform interracial marriages.  It&#039;s legal, but those who do it are shunned.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great article! I think, at the end of the day, Dreher is afraid not of government force, but of social sanction.  He wants it to be <i>OK</i> to discriminate against gays.  His biggest worry, I think, is that churches that refuse to perform same-sex marriage will be treated the same way as those who refuse to perform interracial marriages.  It&#8217;s legal, but those who do it are shunned.</p>
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