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	<title>Comments on: Thought for the Day</title>
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		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/11/thought-for-the-day/#comment-32371</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Nov 2009 04:04:21 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>So Americans should have sat around and debated whether to retaliate after we were attacked? Sounds like something a Canadian would do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So Americans should have sat around and debated whether to retaliate after we were attacked? Sounds like something a Canadian would do.</p>
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		<title>By: Jaybird</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/11/thought-for-the-day/#comment-32355</link>
		<dc:creator>Jaybird</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 17:24:29 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>In the case of Iraq, do you not see that as hella preferable?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the case of Iraq, do you not see that as hella preferable?</p>
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		<title>By: JosephFM</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/11/thought-for-the-day/#comment-32352</link>
		<dc:creator>JosephFM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 15:29:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Well, exactly, we&#039;d debate and debate and then...not do anything. Just like with global warming.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, exactly, we&#8217;d debate and debate and then&#8230;not do anything. Just like with global warming.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott H. Payne</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/11/thought-for-the-day/#comment-32297</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott H. Payne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Nov 2009 17:56:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=11375#comment-32297</guid>
		<description>Tongue, meet cheek.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tongue, meet cheek.</p>
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		<title>By: Jaybird</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/11/thought-for-the-day/#comment-32296</link>
		<dc:creator>Jaybird</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Nov 2009 17:53:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I think that 9/11 totally screwed up any potential for debate about Iraq. Without 9/11, I think we would have been able to pull a debate off that was at least as vigorous as the Global Warming debate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that 9/11 totally screwed up any potential for debate about Iraq. Without 9/11, I think we would have been able to pull a debate off that was at least as vigorous as the Global Warming debate.</p>
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		<title>By: North</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/11/thought-for-the-day/#comment-32283</link>
		<dc:creator>North</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Nov 2009 13:31:26 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Good thoughts, frankly I don&#039;t feel strongly about the question nor do I have any more insight to add so I&#039;ll concede the field. Happy Thanksgiving to you too Kyle!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good thoughts, frankly I don&#8217;t feel strongly about the question nor do I have any more insight to add so I&#8217;ll concede the field. Happy Thanksgiving to you too Kyle!</p>
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		<title>By: Cascadian</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/11/thought-for-the-day/#comment-32276</link>
		<dc:creator>Cascadian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Nov 2009 05:39:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=11375#comment-32276</guid>
		<description>I read blogs so I don&#039;t have to listen to talking heads... urgh.  1812 is a great example.  You don&#039;t need debate when you have a military that is most interested in defending their homes and not so interested in empire.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I read blogs so I don&#8217;t have to listen to talking heads&#8230; urgh.  1812 is a great example.  You don&#8217;t need debate when you have a military that is most interested in defending their homes and not so interested in empire.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Drew</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/11/thought-for-the-day/#comment-32274</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Drew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Nov 2009 05:00:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=11375#comment-32274</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t necessarily disagree that we may not have had in us a better, more extensive, more rational, substantive debate at that time in any case, but even if we had, it would have been equally squelched by those in power and their media enablers.  And given the manifest intentions and indifference to popular dissent and to reason itself of the administration in question, none of it would have made any difference in any case.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t necessarily disagree that we may not have had in us a better, more extensive, more rational, substantive debate at that time in any case, but even if we had, it would have been equally squelched by those in power and their media enablers.  And given the manifest intentions and indifference to popular dissent and to reason itself of the administration in question, none of it would have made any difference in any case.</p>
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		<title>By: Kyle</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/11/thought-for-the-day/#comment-32273</link>
		<dc:creator>Kyle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Nov 2009 04:46:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=11375#comment-32273</guid>
		<description>The key though is hindsight which grants us the advantage of greater factual knowledge and emotional distance. I&#039;m only saying Katrina vanden Heuvel is using a wishful counterfactual that is ultimately unprovable. 

As someone who was solidly against the war back then, I&#039;m remembering the emotion and shared trauma and still unclear that a longer, deeper debate would&#039;ve changed things. Now that it&#039;s super unpopular and President Bush has continued to own the war, a lot of people are let off the hook who weren&#039;t exactly models of sense and sensibility 8 years ago. 

I think to say we didn&#039;t have debate because it was &quot;unpatriotic&quot; is to rewrite history and ignore all the people who didn&#039;t participate in the debate because they felt somebody had to pay. Let&#039;s face it, that&#039;s not a particularly novel human reaction. 

Maybe debate would&#039;ve changed things. Maybe Hussein would&#039;ve tripped, died, and left a succession crisis resulting in a democratic overthrow in 2003. Maybe he&#039;d have declared war on Iran again and we&#039;d be looking at full scale war in the gulf, the world will never know.

Generally, I don&#039;t think much is to be gained by counterfactuals beyond feelings of smug enlightenment. I care much more about gleaning lessons from the past and working to apply them prospectively than I do trading stories about how much better off the world would be if people had done things &lt;strike&gt;my way&lt;/strike&gt; differently. 

KvH might as well have said, &quot;well if Belichick had made another play, the Pats would&#039;ve won.&quot; Sure, but he might still have lost. Counterfactuals and monday morning quarterbacking make for conversational fodder but nothing useful. That&#039;s all I&#039;m saying.

Happy Thanksgiving, North!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The key though is hindsight which grants us the advantage of greater factual knowledge and emotional distance. I&#8217;m only saying Katrina vanden Heuvel is using a wishful counterfactual that is ultimately unprovable. </p>
<p>As someone who was solidly against the war back then, I&#8217;m remembering the emotion and shared trauma and still unclear that a longer, deeper debate would&#8217;ve changed things. Now that it&#8217;s super unpopular and President Bush has continued to own the war, a lot of people are let off the hook who weren&#8217;t exactly models of sense and sensibility 8 years ago. </p>
<p>I think to say we didn&#8217;t have debate because it was &#8220;unpatriotic&#8221; is to rewrite history and ignore all the people who didn&#8217;t participate in the debate because they felt somebody had to pay. Let&#8217;s face it, that&#8217;s not a particularly novel human reaction. </p>
<p>Maybe debate would&#8217;ve changed things. Maybe Hussein would&#8217;ve tripped, died, and left a succession crisis resulting in a democratic overthrow in 2003. Maybe he&#8217;d have declared war on Iran again and we&#8217;d be looking at full scale war in the gulf, the world will never know.</p>
<p>Generally, I don&#8217;t think much is to be gained by counterfactuals beyond feelings of smug enlightenment. I care much more about gleaning lessons from the past and working to apply them prospectively than I do trading stories about how much better off the world would be if people had done things <strike>my way</strike> differently. </p>
<p>KvH might as well have said, &#8220;well if Belichick had made another play, the Pats would&#8217;ve won.&#8221; Sure, but he might still have lost. Counterfactuals and monday morning quarterbacking make for conversational fodder but nothing useful. That&#8217;s all I&#8217;m saying.</p>
<p>Happy Thanksgiving, North!</p>
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		<title>By: North</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/11/thought-for-the-day/#comment-32271</link>
		<dc:creator>North</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Nov 2009 04:13:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=11375#comment-32271</guid>
		<description>Gonna have to disagree Kyle. In hindsight we know that the support for the Iraq war wasn&#039;t much more concrete than some CIA imaginary WMD&#039;s and a lot of &quot;you&#039;re either with us or with the terrorists&quot; chatter. If the debate had been drawn out I think it&#039;s very likely that something would have popped out of secrecy and popped the case for the invasion. 

Now how things would have gone had we not invaded Iraq and only had Afghanistan to focus on? I don&#039;t know. Things would be a lot different if Saddam were still sitting in the middle east thumbing his nose at us and the Iranians.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gonna have to disagree Kyle. In hindsight we know that the support for the Iraq war wasn&#8217;t much more concrete than some CIA imaginary WMD&#8217;s and a lot of &#8220;you&#8217;re either with us or with the terrorists&#8221; chatter. If the debate had been drawn out I think it&#8217;s very likely that something would have popped out of secrecy and popped the case for the invasion. </p>
<p>Now how things would have gone had we not invaded Iraq and only had Afghanistan to focus on? I don&#8217;t know. Things would be a lot different if Saddam were still sitting in the middle east thumbing his nose at us and the Iranians.</p>
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