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	<title>Comments on: Yeah, another reason to raise taxes on the rich</title>
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	<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/11/yeah-another-reason-to-raise-taxes-on-the-rich/</link>
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		<title>By: grandmute</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/11/yeah-another-reason-to-raise-taxes-on-the-rich/#comment-32394</link>
		<dc:creator>grandmute</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Nov 2009 15:23:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=11355#comment-32394</guid>
		<description>A rich person gets more &lt;i&gt;value&lt;/i&gt; out of the existence of the DOE. Remember that bit about increasing the productivity of capital? As for the DOJ, a rich person actually does get better service from this and other law enforcement agencies, in the sense that being rich helps them navigate the system and typically receive more lenient treatment. With the FDA, again, being rich equals benefiting more &lt;i&gt;directly&lt;/i&gt; since one has to have money to buy the products this agency regulates. I&#039;m not sure what CSPC is, so I can&#039;t speak to that.

The point isn&#039;t that there&#039;s some secret means test that makes these and other government programs disproportionately benefit the rich. The point is that these &quot;equal&quot; programs are &lt;i&gt;structured&lt;/i&gt; in a way that &lt;i&gt;does&lt;/i&gt; disproportionately benefit the rich, without stating so outright. Good example: the mortgage deduction. Is it means-tested? Absolutely not. Could anyone, in theory, be eligible for it? Yep. But let&#039;s look at the specific structure of this program:

1. It&#039;s a nonrefundable tax credit. &quot;Nonrefundable&quot; means that you only get as much of a credit as you are slated to pay in income tax. If you are poor and don&#039;t owe much income tax to begin with, a nonrefundable credit won&#039;t be of much help.

2. The credit is scaled with the size of one&#039;s mortgage. Bigger mortgages correspond to better credit. Bigger mortgages also correspond to more expensive homes. Guess who is more likely to have expensive homes and good credit? That&#039;s right, rich people.

To sum up, then, nowhere on the books does it say that, for example, &quot;the mortgage deduction is for rich people only.&quot; But the way it is designed, this and many other programs end up serving the rich much more than they serve the poor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A rich person gets more <i>value</i> out of the existence of the DOE. Remember that bit about increasing the productivity of capital? As for the DOJ, a rich person actually does get better service from this and other law enforcement agencies, in the sense that being rich helps them navigate the system and typically receive more lenient treatment. With the FDA, again, being rich equals benefiting more <i>directly</i> since one has to have money to buy the products this agency regulates. I&#8217;m not sure what CSPC is, so I can&#8217;t speak to that.</p>
<p>The point isn&#8217;t that there&#8217;s some secret means test that makes these and other government programs disproportionately benefit the rich. The point is that these &#8220;equal&#8221; programs are <i>structured</i> in a way that <i>does</i> disproportionately benefit the rich, without stating so outright. Good example: the mortgage deduction. Is it means-tested? Absolutely not. Could anyone, in theory, be eligible for it? Yep. But let&#8217;s look at the specific structure of this program:</p>
<p>1. It&#8217;s a nonrefundable tax credit. &#8220;Nonrefundable&#8221; means that you only get as much of a credit as you are slated to pay in income tax. If you are poor and don&#8217;t owe much income tax to begin with, a nonrefundable credit won&#8217;t be of much help.</p>
<p>2. The credit is scaled with the size of one&#8217;s mortgage. Bigger mortgages correspond to better credit. Bigger mortgages also correspond to more expensive homes. Guess who is more likely to have expensive homes and good credit? That&#8217;s right, rich people.</p>
<p>To sum up, then, nowhere on the books does it say that, for example, &#8220;the mortgage deduction is for rich people only.&#8221; But the way it is designed, this and many other programs end up serving the rich much more than they serve the poor.</p>
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		<title>By: Nob Akimoto</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/11/yeah-another-reason-to-raise-taxes-on-the-rich/#comment-32387</link>
		<dc:creator>Nob Akimoto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Nov 2009 10:08:46 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Rawlsian arguments exist that suggest richer people are generally better off when the lowest utility in society is maximized because of the various positive externalities generated with the higher utility from mitigating the worst case risk aversion of people in general.

I suppose if you want to take an extreme argument (which I realize would not satisfy a microeconomics course), yes, a rich person does benefit from more national defense relative to a poor one. Why? Because the state&#039;s the only thing protecting his property rights (and arguable the only thing that creates his right to property), and the state&#039;s military is therefore more proportionately being used to defend him over the people with less money.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rawlsian arguments exist that suggest richer people are generally better off when the lowest utility in society is maximized because of the various positive externalities generated with the higher utility from mitigating the worst case risk aversion of people in general.</p>
<p>I suppose if you want to take an extreme argument (which I realize would not satisfy a microeconomics course), yes, a rich person does benefit from more national defense relative to a poor one. Why? Because the state&#8217;s the only thing protecting his property rights (and arguable the only thing that creates his right to property), and the state&#8217;s military is therefore more proportionately being used to defend him over the people with less money.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/11/yeah-another-reason-to-raise-taxes-on-the-rich/#comment-32376</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Nov 2009 04:41:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=11355#comment-32376</guid>
		<description>What does whether or not  a rich person or their family serves in the military have to do with the subject? Does a rich person get anymore service from the DOE, DOJ, FDA or CSPC? No, there is no means test for fed gov services so why should some people have to pay more? As far as mortgage deduction, I&#039;m not aware of a means test for the deduction, so anyone can get it if you can get a mortgage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What does whether or not  a rich person or their family serves in the military have to do with the subject? Does a rich person get anymore service from the DOE, DOJ, FDA or CSPC? No, there is no means test for fed gov services so why should some people have to pay more? As far as mortgage deduction, I&#8217;m not aware of a means test for the deduction, so anyone can get it if you can get a mortgage.</p>
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		<title>By: grandmute</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/11/yeah-another-reason-to-raise-taxes-on-the-rich/#comment-32372</link>
		<dc:creator>grandmute</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Nov 2009 04:22:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=11355#comment-32372</guid>
		<description>More national defense? Maybe not, but a rich person is much less likely to serve or have family serving in the armed forces. National parks? Well, unless you live on the outskirts of one, you have to have disposable income to visit. The FAA? Again, gotta have disposable income to fly, and I&#039;m sure air travel is positively correlated with income.

Add to that various tax breaks (e.g., most income tax deductions) and the externality effects of government programs, particularly with respect to the productivity of capital, and you&#039;ve got a bundle of government services that predominantly benefits the wealthy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>More national defense? Maybe not, but a rich person is much less likely to serve or have family serving in the armed forces. National parks? Well, unless you live on the outskirts of one, you have to have disposable income to visit. The FAA? Again, gotta have disposable income to fly, and I&#8217;m sure air travel is positively correlated with income.</p>
<p>Add to that various tax breaks (e.g., most income tax deductions) and the externality effects of government programs, particularly with respect to the productivity of capital, and you&#8217;ve got a bundle of government services that predominantly benefits the wealthy.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/11/yeah-another-reason-to-raise-taxes-on-the-rich/#comment-32370</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Nov 2009 03:52:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=11355#comment-32370</guid>
		<description>Does a rich person get anymore national defense, or use of the national parks or the services of the FAA etc. for those extra taxes? Why should the rich pay more, just b/c the gov&#039;t decides they should?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does a rich person get anymore national defense, or use of the national parks or the services of the FAA etc. for those extra taxes? Why should the rich pay more, just b/c the gov&#8217;t decides they should?</p>
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		<title>By: Nob Akimoto</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/11/yeah-another-reason-to-raise-taxes-on-the-rich/#comment-32367</link>
		<dc:creator>Nob Akimoto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Nov 2009 00:29:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=11355#comment-32367</guid>
		<description>That would be true...if income taxes actually took things like capital gains into account...which they don&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That would be true&#8230;if income taxes actually took things like capital gains into account&#8230;which they don&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: grandmute</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/11/yeah-another-reason-to-raise-taxes-on-the-rich/#comment-32363</link>
		<dc:creator>grandmute</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 21:54:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=11355#comment-32363</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Why tax the rich more, as they don’t get anymore from the gov’t than others do?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Well ... do they? About the only thing that rich people do &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; get from the government that poor people do is means-tested transfers (TANF, food stamps, Section 8), and those don&#039;t add up to much. The rich &lt;i&gt;do&lt;/i&gt; benefit directly from nonrefundable tax credits (such as mortgage deductions), more than the poor, because their taxable income/property tends to be more valuable. Meanwhile, government investment in things like education, infrastructure, the legal system, etc., greatly raises the marginal productivity of capital in this country. That disproportionately rewards those who own and profit from capital. In other words, the rich.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Why tax the rich more, as they don’t get anymore from the gov’t than others do?</p></blockquote>
<p>Well &#8230; do they? About the only thing that rich people do <i>not</i> get from the government that poor people do is means-tested transfers (TANF, food stamps, Section 8), and those don&#8217;t add up to much. The rich <i>do</i> benefit directly from nonrefundable tax credits (such as mortgage deductions), more than the poor, because their taxable income/property tends to be more valuable. Meanwhile, government investment in things like education, infrastructure, the legal system, etc., greatly raises the marginal productivity of capital in this country. That disproportionately rewards those who own and profit from capital. In other words, the rich.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Farmer</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/11/yeah-another-reason-to-raise-taxes-on-the-rich/#comment-32253</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Farmer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 22:41:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=11355#comment-32253</guid>
		<description>&quot;How much are you going to pay voluntarily then?&quot;

I already pay voluntarily -- to charity. Also, you&#039;re assuming a direct tax is the only way to raise revenues. With a limited government, not much would need to be raised, and it could be done indirectly. Taking private property is theft. The income tax leads to statism -- now it&#039;s led to unsustainable debt.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;How much are you going to pay voluntarily then?&#8221;</p>
<p>I already pay voluntarily &#8212; to charity. Also, you&#8217;re assuming a direct tax is the only way to raise revenues. With a limited government, not much would need to be raised, and it could be done indirectly. Taking private property is theft. The income tax leads to statism &#8212; now it&#8217;s led to unsustainable debt.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/11/yeah-another-reason-to-raise-taxes-on-the-rich/#comment-32232</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 16:07:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=11355#comment-32232</guid>
		<description>Why not a flat tax? Why tax the rich more, as they don&#039;t get anymore from the gov&#039;t than others do? Everyone only one gets one vote so why should they pay more in taxes?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why not a flat tax? Why tax the rich more, as they don&#8217;t get anymore from the gov&#8217;t than others do? Everyone only one gets one vote so why should they pay more in taxes?</p>
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		<title>By: Jaybird</title>
		<link>http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/11/yeah-another-reason-to-raise-taxes-on-the-rich/#comment-32224</link>
		<dc:creator>Jaybird</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 13:50:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/?p=11355#comment-32224</guid>
		<description>Let&#039;s lower the taxes on the lower and middle classes until things are back in balance.

They need the money a lot more than the government does.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let&#8217;s lower the taxes on the lower and middle classes until things are back in balance.</p>
<p>They need the money a lot more than the government does.</p>
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